Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Hand on the flap lever - A scandinavian thing?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Hand on the flap lever - A scandinavian thing?

Old 19th Jul 2011, 20:08
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Scandiland
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hand on the flap lever - A scandinavian thing?

Hi all.

Had a discussion with a colleague yesterday about selecting flaps. During my MCC and ever since, the drill has been to hold the hand on the flaplever during selections until the new configuration is set. The discussion stemmed from having seen another colleague from continental europe letting go of the flap lever during selection.

I also recall during my flights as a contractor in southern europe (you meet all kinds) that allmost noone held their hand on the flap lever following the initial movement of the selector lever. It may sound silly, but from my previous experience it has been considered an important detail of operating the flaps, mainly due to the following reasons:

- Stabilizer stall, noticing elevator buffeting during flap movement may be indicative of a stabilizer stall. Quickly reselecting previous setting may avert the situation.

- Following the flap movement to notice any assymetries. If there is a flap brake of other protection system, it's all well but it might not function. Keeping it under supervision is good. In my previous type there even was a recall item incase of "flap fault" to reselect previous setting. This was type specific for the Saab 340, but also during my MCC in the F28 sim the method of operating the flaps were the same.

- Noting when the flap has set and thus selecting the new lower speed on the bugs. Perhaps only an issue on older clock type instruments. Letting go and doing other things may lead to forgetting the new speed.

Despite these good reasons, both me and my colleague whom I discussed this with had seen many examples of other pilots not at all familiar with this procedure. And thus I ask, is it a scandinavian thing or is it something that is emphasized during MCC/type rating courses in other parts of the world?

LnS
low n' slow is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2011, 20:30
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sweden
Age: 77
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hand on the flap lever - A scandinavian thing?
In the SAAB 340 case I believe it was introduced when Björn had the severe pitch down incident up north, having sandpaper ice on the horizontal stabilizer.

He could successfully recover by selecting flaps up. He tried twice with the same result for some strange reason before he convinced himself to use another setting rather than full.

I'll guess he had the accident at Oscar Bravo in mind, where the plane(forgotten the name) flipped over when selecting full flap and crashed due to ice on the HS.
Tjosan is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2011, 21:38
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sounds more like a type specific issue rather than an airmanship item. Never heard or was taught this way of operating the flaps, but then all i've ever flown after my abinitio course was the 737 where it is not done that way. Would be extremely cumbersome with the FO as PF since he has his hands on the thrust lever and the CPT has to reach around his arms to operate the flaps on the other side of the flightdeck.
Denti is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2011, 22:05
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Was taught this way during the MCC course and it has stuck with me since. If practical, I don't let go until verifying correct indication.
bfisk is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2011, 22:29
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: location location
Posts: 89
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Depends on type.

We're probably all familiar with the phrase "limitation......operation......indication" when moving flaps,slats gear etc.

However, Monsieur le Airbus only requires that we observe the L and O portion of this rule since we will get an ECAM warning if selected position ( of lever ) disagrees with actual position of flaps etc.

Like Denti says its not good practise for crossed arms across the thrust lever quadrant or to hang onto the LG down lever for about 5 seconds before getting three greens and then removing your hand.
charlies angel is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2011, 23:35
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've seen the F/O keep his hand on the handle during transit on the heavies in the event of a problem. Makes good sense IMHO.


The following is a NASA Glenn Resarch video demonstrating tail icing, and its effect when changing config (it explains the sudden and violent pitch down).

ECAM_Actions is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 03:42
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As noted above, it is type-specific...

I would NOT recommend doing it in the 744. The protections against against asymmetry are good, and you probably do NOT want to pre-emptively move the flap handle up (or down) again if there is a problem.
Intruder is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 04:33
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Inter Nations
Age: 40
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Code:
Would be extremely cumbersome with the FO as PF since he has his hands on the thrust lever and the CPT has to reach around his arms to operate the flaps on the other side of the flightdeck.
Twister in de cockpit!

FO left hand on thrust levers, CAPT right hand on flap lever, FO right foot on PFD 1, CAPT left foot on McDU
DutchOne is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 07:54
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,834
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Each to their own, I suppose, but I've always wondered about the habits some people have developed whereby they cling onto various knobs and levers on the flight deck, like a baby chimp to its mother.

It's not only the major flight controls, I've had guys with an attachment to the MCP speed selector as well as the VS adjuster.

I mean, come on, none of these things whizz around the cockpit hiding themselves as soon as you take your hand away. I do wonder about the mental capacity of those in question as they seem to be fixating on one item rather than taking in the whole picture... What happens if you need the speedbrake when both hands are occupied on other controls? I've watched pilots at 30,000' in smooth air maintain a death grip on the yoke and throttles with the autopilot engaged on a FBW aircraft. Only bad things can result from this, like getting used to fighting the autothrottle on the approach: one day it'll be doing something essential.

I can understand the need to cover or follow through on the controls in some circumstances, like in the latter stages of an autoland, where you may have to take over in short order. Pretty much all of the rest of the time, you can watch everything from a distance and intervene when necessary.

For flaps, all modern airliners that I know of have extensive asymmetry / overload protection and multiply redundant actuation - you only really need to check that *something* is trying to happen when you make the selection then you can turn your attention to other things. Alerting systems will bring it back if required.
FullWings is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 08:25
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,087
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
Well said FW
stilton is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 08:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Each to their own, I suppose, but I've always wondered about the habits some people have developed whereby they cling onto various knobs and levers on the flight deck, like a baby chimp to its mother.
Airline cockpits are full of these gimmicks. It is usually someone's GOOD IDEA and becomes SOP. Like the PNF slyly grasping the control column during rotation or the flare or riding the rudder pedals just in case the PF has a heart attack or stroke. Childish nonsense has no place on a flight deck. Cold professionalism has.
Tee Emm is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 09:01
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What about the speedbrake lever?

Ok guys, then fire away at this bad habit of mine: whenever I'm using speedbrake I often keep a hand lightly resting on the speedbrake lever. If I need the hand for something else I will remove it of course, but then will try to rest it on the lever again: if I don't, sure as eggs when I capture the next altitude I will forget about the speedbrake until the Eicas (or ECAM in my previous life) reminds me that I'm an idiot.

Flame-proof gear ON
main_dog is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 10:12
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
whenever I'm using speedbrake I often keep a hand lightly resting on the speedbrake lever.
That is the recommended procedure specified by Boeing on the 744 even though EICAS does display a caution if the speedbrakes are extended in an inappropriate situation.
Mercenary Pilot is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2011, 10:12
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, boeings advice on the 737 is that the PF keeps his hand on the speedbrake lever whenever the speedbrakes are used in flight. I guess that is a lesson from the 757 accident.

Apart from that and the requirement to guard (but not with a deathgrip) the flight controls if one doesn't fly manually anyway at low altitude i guess FullWings summed it up nicely.
Denti is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.