Your airlines' policy about the use of automation during flight?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clarify
My current type is 757, and with both 2 and 300 series, different flap settings and improved climb, 10 degrees has been agreed as the best target pitch attitude.
Regards
GBD
(came off the bus for LHS)
My current type is 757, and with both 2 and 300 series, different flap settings and improved climb, 10 degrees has been agreed as the best target pitch attitude.
Regards
GBD
(came off the bus for LHS)
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CATII & III approaches, when everything is working, are not difficult and only require a high level of monitoring, however, failures during the take-off roll, using the black and white Barber's Pole, can be interesting, as can the go around from a very low height. Not all companies are the same but, in my last employer, to maintain currency, there would be one no problems approach and landing and all the others would have failures of one sort or another fed in.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now you mention
What is easier? a multiple AP coupled balked landing or a hand flown balked landing?
See what i mean? Hand flying proficiency should be regularly checked, just the same as low visibility approaches.
SImulator training is one requirement, and you can use it to rehearse all kind of scenarios and faults. But another requirement is to carry out a number of autolands in real revenue fllights. Why do regulations not require a number of hand flown ILS or even NPAs every six months in order to make sure that the flight crews remain proficient at hand flying?
A hand flown ILS in a sim is not real. Wind is not real, feeling is not real. And you do only one, maybe zero, every six months. That is not good.
PD _FlighpathOBN. looks like you are more interested in this thread than you think...
What is easier? a multiple AP coupled balked landing or a hand flown balked landing?
See what i mean? Hand flying proficiency should be regularly checked, just the same as low visibility approaches.
SImulator training is one requirement, and you can use it to rehearse all kind of scenarios and faults. But another requirement is to carry out a number of autolands in real revenue fllights. Why do regulations not require a number of hand flown ILS or even NPAs every six months in order to make sure that the flight crews remain proficient at hand flying?
A hand flown ILS in a sim is not real. Wind is not real, feeling is not real. And you do only one, maybe zero, every six months. That is not good.
PD _FlighpathOBN. looks like you are more interested in this thread than you think...
Last edited by Microburst2002; 16th Jun 2011 at 06:48. Reason: PD
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The requirement to make 2 real autolands per month vanished for us around 8 or so years ago, since then we do not need to do any autolands or cat III approaches on the line, every six month in the simulator is enough.
And indeed the regulations require that we do a hand flown (FD allowed) ILS and at least one NPA using normal SOPs every six month, or each simulator event.
And indeed the regulations require that we do a hand flown (FD allowed) ILS and at least one NPA using normal SOPs every six month, or each simulator event.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anybody know what British Airways' OM says about the use (or not) of automation?
Every A/C (not pilot) in our fleet has to do 2 autolands/month for the A/C to stay CAT IIIB approved.
Yeah, that would keep someone current and proficient in hand flying! 
Luckily Denti's outfit appears to be smarter than the regulator.
Every A/C (not pilot) in our fleet has to do 2 autolands/month for the A/C to stay CAT IIIB approved.
the regulations require that we do a hand flown (FD allowed) ILS and at least one NPA using normal SOPs every six month, or each simulator event.
Luckily Denti's outfit appears to be smarter than the regulator.
Last edited by sabenaboy; 16th Jun 2011 at 07:50.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA I believe do a monitored approach on every leg. Basically the other guy will take over at minimums and land. FO or Capt. I also here that they can only disconnect the autopilot when fully configured and fully established.
This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to take a job with them! Then again, I suppose I could have configured at 50 miles out and flew it then? hahaha
I could be wrong, but maybe a Nigel could correct me on this?
Anyone else also hear about Cathay? They have now forbidden it and every landing is (wait for it)..... AUTOLAND only!!!
What a disgrace.
This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to take a job with them! Then again, I suppose I could have configured at 50 miles out and flew it then? hahaha
I could be wrong, but maybe a Nigel could correct me on this?
Anyone else also hear about Cathay? They have now forbidden it and every landing is (wait for it)..... AUTOLAND only!!!
What a disgrace.
Guest
Posts: n/a
At our airline we have a very unusual way of conducting 'manual flight'.
PF assumes the role of 'autopilot', so even though he is flying the aircraft, PNF decides when flap will be selectecd, puts the gear down when he wants, and so on.
It very much discourages hand flying. That is the effect that it has in real life.
Whether that is the intended effect, I know not.
On the rare ocassion that an FO "hand flies", expect a less than jerk-free ride.
PF assumes the role of 'autopilot', so even though he is flying the aircraft, PNF decides when flap will be selectecd, puts the gear down when he wants, and so on.
It very much discourages hand flying. That is the effect that it has in real life.
Whether that is the intended effect, I know not.
On the rare ocassion that an FO "hand flies", expect a less than jerk-free ride.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please tell me you're joking!
Originally Posted by BarbiesBoyfriend
At our airline we have a very unusual way of conducting 'manual flight'.
PF assumes the role of 'autopilot', so even though he is flying the aircraft, PNF decides when flap will be selectecd, puts the gear down when he wants, and so on.
PF assumes the role of 'autopilot', so even though he is flying the aircraft, PNF decides when flap will be selectecd, puts the gear down when he wants, and so on.
You must be kidding, right?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can manually fly when ever you want at Cathay, autoland rumor is absolute crap. Autopilot is recommended in high workload situations and obviously during low vis approaches.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone else also hear about Cathay? They have now forbidden it and every landing is (wait for it)..... AUTOLAND only!!!
Common sense dictates that what you've heard is nonsense
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mrs-rodge
Your info about BA is wrong as well. Autopilot can be disconnected whenever you like and landing pilot can take over when visual not necessarily at minimums. There is also no requirement to do real autolands regularly any more. The sim every 6 months is sufficient.
Cheers
Your info about BA is wrong as well. Autopilot can be disconnected whenever you like and landing pilot can take over when visual not necessarily at minimums. There is also no requirement to do real autolands regularly any more. The sim every 6 months is sufficient.
Cheers
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Solitaire, would you care to tell us more about BA's policy? From what I've heard hand flying raw data is highly unusual at BA. Disconnecting A/P (but keeping F/D + A/T on) somewhere on final would be the norm? Does that sound more correct?
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: ...Valhalla
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my outfit, we fly two diffrent 'types' with totally diffrent roles, Regional and Medium haul to be precise. For the Regional guys the rules of engagement are simple, ' do what you like' i.e Hand-fly, Auto-fly, whichever.. The OM, though not strictly, does suggest a "Judicious use of automation to reduce crew workload". But because we fly to a combination of Apts doing ILS,VOR, NDB/or Visual in one single hop !! (Yup, you heard it right), Short fields, Narrow rwys, etc. we end up having our share of (manual) fun quite often. But even here some chappies prefer doing even a Visual with the A/P !! To each their own I say..
On the other hand, the "Bus" drivers are much more restricted, they are 'forbidden' to dis-engage their fancy automation (A/T, FD, A/P..) unless a situation demands it (type of failure, QRH action,etc.)
This I feel is downright absurd and dangerous. If you don't allow a bloke to practise his manual flying skills on his set of wheels , how do you expect him to be profecient when the auto-matics go out the window and the situation warrants every ounce of your skill.
Though a lot has been discussed on this forum regarding the importance of hand-flying, automation, a mix of both, etc,etc. nobody can dispute the fact that a Pilot's Flying-Skill is the one he's most proud of, and any lack of it results directly in underconfidence. Its also encouraging to see some carriers allowing/promoting hand-flying even in modern M/H category ac. I've also heard some european carriers mandate a Pilot to fly T/O to 10,000 and 10,000 to landing without any automation to keep their skill levels up especially the ones on FBW ac (twice in 30 consec. days or something). Hope this trend cathes on with others aswell.....
Till then, wish you Blue skies and Greasy landings !
On the other hand, the "Bus" drivers are much more restricted, they are 'forbidden' to dis-engage their fancy automation (A/T, FD, A/P..) unless a situation demands it (type of failure, QRH action,etc.)
This I feel is downright absurd and dangerous. If you don't allow a bloke to practise his manual flying skills on his set of wheels , how do you expect him to be profecient when the auto-matics go out the window and the situation warrants every ounce of your skill. Though a lot has been discussed on this forum regarding the importance of hand-flying, automation, a mix of both, etc,etc. nobody can dispute the fact that a Pilot's Flying-Skill is the one he's most proud of, and any lack of it results directly in underconfidence. Its also encouraging to see some carriers allowing/promoting hand-flying even in modern M/H category ac. I've also heard some european carriers mandate a Pilot to fly T/O to 10,000 and 10,000 to landing without any automation to keep their skill levels up especially the ones on FBW ac (twice in 30 consec. days or something). Hope this trend cathes on with others aswell.....
Till then, wish you Blue skies and Greasy landings !
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,
Flying for a Belgian charter company this is what our OM A says:
All pilots shall stay proficient in all 4 company defined levels of automation:
- no automation
- F/D only
- AP with basic modes
- LNAV / VNAV
Pilots are encouraged to practice their flying skills and there are no restrictions on the use of automation. However, F/D on take-off is recommended with wind shear reported.
Ab initio training includes F/D off flying including engine failure on take-off & one engine out approach in CAT I minima. The type rating check-out includes at least one F/D off approach in CAT I weather (a CAA requirement). But it also includes flying LNAV / VNAV approaches. Both should be known perfectly.
With this training & OM policy it's really a pleasure to fly (also because the destinations are not busy airports). Imo PM workload is not increased when flying F/D off, it's even reduced as the PM doesn't have to push all those buttons
But most importantly, keep having fun!
Cheers
Flying for a Belgian charter company this is what our OM A says:
All pilots shall stay proficient in all 4 company defined levels of automation:
- no automation
- F/D only
- AP with basic modes
- LNAV / VNAV
Pilots are encouraged to practice their flying skills and there are no restrictions on the use of automation. However, F/D on take-off is recommended with wind shear reported.
Ab initio training includes F/D off flying including engine failure on take-off & one engine out approach in CAT I minima. The type rating check-out includes at least one F/D off approach in CAT I weather (a CAA requirement). But it also includes flying LNAV / VNAV approaches. Both should be known perfectly.
With this training & OM policy it's really a pleasure to fly (also because the destinations are not busy airports). Imo PM workload is not increased when flying F/D off, it's even reduced as the PM doesn't have to push all those buttons
But most importantly, keep having fun!
Cheers
Mrs-rodge
BA I believe do a monitored approach on every leg. Basically the other guy will take over at minimums and land. FO or Capt. I also here that they can only disconnect the autopilot when fully configured and fully established.
In BA the pilot flying the approach is certainly allowed to hand fly if conditions permit, and the "Landing pilot" can take control anytime, regardless of configuration, as long as he/she's got the required visual references.
Regarding the use of flight directors ( sabenaboy's question) - most leave them on into LHR, a few turn them off on a good day. On "my" fleet there's plenty of opportunity for non-F/D hand flying on the Caribbean sectors.
Autolands: Now covered in the recurrent simulator details, no requirement to do any for recency on the aircraft.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Europe.
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 11 years and many many flying hours, I have never been in a situation where the autopilot is unable to maintain an acceptable flight path. If you have then I put it to you that you were somewhere you should not have been thus opening further questions.
I don't claim to be an excellent pilot, nor will I ever disconnect AP, AT on an approach (whether its IMC or VMC) without the approval of the PNF. As many have already mentioned there is a time and a place to do this. I'm no idiot.
Bottom line is though that flying an ILS is a pretty basic flying skill.
I would be terribly ashamed if I would not be able to do this.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I ever disconnect AP, AT on an approach (whether its IMC or VMC) without the approval of the PNF