Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

AF447 wreckage found

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

AF447 wreckage found

Old 21st May 2011, 18:08
  #361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,316
vee-tail-1,
Do a bit more research.....;
You'll find the average long-haul does fly quite close to "coffin corner". Nothing to do with AF or Airbus.

Yes, stop traveling on airplanes..... and in cars, too.
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 19:21
  #362 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangkok, Paris
Posts: 53
FDR (and CVR?) data to be released by end of next week

I haven't seen it mentioned here so far, so here it is: French media are reporting that the BEA will release the "raw data" (probably not that raw) from the data recorders (both of them?) by the end of next week. It is said that this upcoming release will not include a statement on the causes of the crash, because the investigation is far from being complete at this point in time.

According to the BEA, this is done to stop more so-called "leaks" from appearing in the press and propagating inaccurate or plain wrong information on the supposed causes of the crash.

I find it a bit difficult to understand how they plan to release data from the fight recorders without doing some interpretation and therefore providing hints at the most likely causes, but that's what's being said anyway.
alainthailande is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 19:23
  #363 (permalink)  

Sun worshipper
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 494
Yes, stop traveling on airplanes..... and in cars, too.
Does that mean "On your bike, mate" ?
Lemurian is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 19:56
  #364 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sherbourne
Posts: 13
Air Trans Pilot Benton West was subsequently killed in a car crash "hauling corn"

Airtran Hero Killed In Crash Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
I.A.T.U. Butler is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 21:21
  #365 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: on a blue balloon
Posts: 0
alainthailande

It's not so difficult to understand. The BEA will say what happened. Not why it happened.

I'll go have another Singha.
oldchina is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 00:25
  #366 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Feriton
Posts: 70
Reuters reports that Friday is the day the BEA will release a 'sequence of events'. I wonder if they will release a CVR transcript?

Investigators to give details on 2009 Rio-Paris Air France crash | Reuters
Diamond Bob is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 00:37
  #367 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 64
Posts: 1,810
Cool

Hi,

if they will release a CVR transcript?
Forget it !
jcjeant is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 09:12
  #368 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pembrokeshire UK
Posts: 342
Christiaanj bearfoil
From your replies I see rampant complacency, and would suggest Airbus is only safe if restricted to day VMC. The Airbus design philosophy is flawed, and unsafe. Plus the new breed of 'pilots' / IT monitors inhabiting the flight deck are inexperienced in hand flying, which the design of the aircraft prevents them doing anyway. The ever growing list of incidents, and near misses would seem to confirm my pessimism.
vee-tail-1 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 11:29
  #369 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 475
vee tee you are talking from the wrong end. Turn yourself upright and start again.

I remember a completely analogue Boeing losing air data and guess what it crashed.

I remember a 757 having a problem with only one speed source and not all 3.
Guess what...it crashed.

Aircraft are complex and inherently safe. When things go wrong however, regardless of manufacturer analogue/digital, all rules are null and void.

Now please come and join the real world.
Safety Concerns is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 12:13
  #370 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Belgium/Russia
Age: 40
Posts: 74
The Airbus design philosophy is flawed, and unsafe
It's pretty amazing then that dispite them being "unsafe" they have similar safety records to Boeing? Which are also pretty much computer controlled these days anyway. The A330 came along in '93 and hundreds of them are in the air as we speak... how many of them have dropped out of the sky since?

Statistics are not on your side. It's pretty obvious that you have a personal dislike of this particular brand of plane but that doesn't alter the cold hard facts so do yourself a favour and stop spouting nonsense.
JCviggen is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 12:39
  #371 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,924
Captain not in cockpit?

DER SPIEGEL (a usually reliable German weekly) reports here (sorry, only in German) that the CVR reveals that Captn. Marc Dubois rushed to the cockpit and shouted commands to the two pilots flying, moments before it all went horribly wrong.

According to the Spiegel report, the pilots successfully tried to avoid the convenctive wx in front of them, but the pitot tubes iced over. Shortly after the ASIs failed (I quote Der Spiegel here), the a/c was pulled up steeply. If this maneuver was commanded by the pilots or the systems is - according to Der Spiegel - unclear at this stage.
172driver is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 13:13
  #372 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Age: 69
Posts: 66
DER SPIEGEL in engl.

Here is a comment in english on DER SPIEGEL

Report: Pilot "not in cockpit" when Air France plane ran into trouble - Monsters and Critics
scanhorse is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 14:23
  #373 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangkok,Thailand
Posts: 106
The Airbus design philosophy is flawed, and unsafe. Plus the new breed of 'pilots' / IT monitors inhabiting the flight deck are inexperienced in hand flying, which the design of the aircraft prevents them doing anyway. The ever growing list of incidents, and near misses would seem to confirm my pessimism.
Your comments (rants) add nothing to this thread and only divert attention from whats important: finding out what brought down AF 447.

FYI, the A320 series of aircraft have one of the best safety records in the history of aviation, and they have been flying for over 20 yrs. So can it!

Finally, it is true that AB pilots do more system monitoring than hand flying, but that is the way of the world. I myself can control all of my business via my hand-held I phone. I don't remember anyone's phone number anymore, because I don't have to. Is it full proof? No, in a pinch I cant even remember my mothers phone number.....
Razoray is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 19:19
  #374 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: France
Age: 67
Posts: 20
Well.......
Just go to the webpage of BEA and you will see that they DO ALWAYS publish
the CVR transcript.
Level100 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 19:29
  #375 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Texas, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 13
AF 447 was not brought down by a design philosophy, it was brought down by a set of events which are not, as yet, known with sufficient completeness to draw ANY conclusions as to proximate cause, much less contributory causes. Furthermore, the only thing that preconceptions (positive or negative) regarding design philosophy can do at this stage of the investigation is to reduce the completeness of the analysis of the empirical evidence, to the overall detriment of the proper objective, which is improving aviation safety.

Something else important to keep in mind, before condemning the design philosophy whenever there is a severe incident or accident affecting an FBW aircraft, is a characteristic of abnormal incidents that occurs for ALL types of embedded computer systems. (Indeed, a characteristic that is well known in the embedded computer industry, and was widely discussed 40 years ago, but is largely taken for granted today.) Whenever an embedded system is widely deployed to control (or "automate") a formerly-manual process, the proportion of severe abnormal incidents goes up while the total number of abnormal incidents goes down. Note it is the PROPORTION that goes up -- the total number of abnormal incidents goes down, but the embedded system is so good at dealing with routine problems that the number of common incidents is reduced far more than the number of unusual/severe incidents.

In the case of sophisticated flight control systems (all of them, not just Airbus), the very presence of the system may increase the risk of extreme or severe events by doing such a good job of dealing with common events that the (collective) exposure of those aircraft to the possibility of the uncommon events goes up.

For an excellent discussion of the differing kinds of risks that affect complex systems, see
Epistemic and Aleatory Risk Dark Matter
That author has also written interesting material regarding AF 447 from a systems safety perspective, see
The Airbus A330 Aircraft & System Safety Dark Matter
MFgeo is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 22:43
  #376 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pembrokeshire UK
Posts: 342
MFgeo Thanks, your links would seem to justfy my rant.
vee-tail-1 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 23:38
  #377 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Inside
Posts: 285
Which of your rants would that be? The one about flying at coffin corner, which it didn't and they don't?. Or the one about how the aircraft prevents pilots from hand flying, which it doesn't?

Or how you now seek support in articles which are about none of what you ranted about?

I hope you are merely trolling as that would, to some degree, make you appear less of a you know what.
One Outsider is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 00:30
  #378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 245
Which of your rants would that be? The one about flying at coffin corner, which it didn't and they don't?. Or the one about how the aircraft prevents pilots from hand flying, which it doesn't? Or how you now seek support in articles which are about none of what you ranted about?
Did YOU bother to read any of those articles?

The Myth of the Perfect Automatic Man Dark Matter
Criticizes Airbus design philosophy calling it "unnatural".

AF 447 What The Crew Did Maybe Dark Matter
States that the airplane was in coffin corner.

I'm not defending either the facts or the viewpoints in those articles. But they say what they say. And a fair reading of what they do say does indeed support vee-tail-1 "ranting" or "trolling".
MountainBear is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 00:48
  #379 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,631
Did YOU bother to read any of those articles?
No.

When a "article" such that has been forwarded appears that does not contain a nationalistic/jingoistic slant, then fine, until then.......

.....REALLY it's becoming TIRESOME....
glad rag is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 01:06
  #380 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Inside
Posts: 285
A casual comment in a single article about it being at coffin corner without offering any proof or anything resembling proof, amounts to nothing. It supports just as much.

I suggest a search for Hazelnuts and PJ's posts on the subject.

The other article linked to offers neither support or opposition. It is merely a subjective description without judgement.

The series of articles is a compilation of guesswork and assumptions mixed with a little fact.

So yes, I did read them all. .
One Outsider is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.