747 V1 Cut Advice
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Since an engine out is always a yaw problem never use the aileron to try to fix the problem. It always requires rudder only. Any aileron usage causes a cross control situation deteriorating climb performance. All takeoff performance charts are predicated on using rudder so if you use aileron you are negating all your takeoff performance data.
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dare I say it? I think the secret is to trim the rudder while still on the ground...at least a bit of it.
Are you suggesting trimming before rotation during the takeoff, or guessing which engine might fail before leaving the gate?
Fly first. Trim later.
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lose the engine, rudder to track centerline and move the rudder trim...V1, Vr,
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maindog
our company requires us to start the call V1 5 knots prior to V1. it is usually in this ''gray zone'' that th e sim instructor pulls the engine.
Certainly if you have a failure prior to V1 you reject...the closeness of all these things is impossible to write.
guppy. you lose the engine, you recognize it, you keep centerline with rudder and you start to trim while you are still on the ground/runway, accelerating to Vr
I'm not saying to trim prior to the start of the takeoff roll
I'm not saying to trim the rudder prior to losing an engine.
but this idea of muscle lock and holding the rudder entirely with muscle, instead of getting some trim in there will make the transition from tracking the centerline visually to instrument flying a bit easier.
our company requires us to start the call V1 5 knots prior to V1. it is usually in this ''gray zone'' that th e sim instructor pulls the engine.
Certainly if you have a failure prior to V1 you reject...the closeness of all these things is impossible to write.
guppy. you lose the engine, you recognize it, you keep centerline with rudder and you start to trim while you are still on the ground/runway, accelerating to Vr
I'm not saying to trim prior to the start of the takeoff roll
I'm not saying to trim the rudder prior to losing an engine.
but this idea of muscle lock and holding the rudder entirely with muscle, instead of getting some trim in there will make the transition from tracking the centerline visually to instrument flying a bit easier.
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I've never heard of calling V1 before, er, V1? And certainly never heard of trimming an A/C during the takeoff roll; in my company that would earn me a quick visit to the training manager for what the Brits call "tea and biscuits" (without the tea and biscuits), but hey whatever works...
What my lot recommend is the technique others have put forward: as soon as you detect the swing, smoothly put your foot in, about halfway for a full derate with a high assumed temp (say D-TO 2 60˚) and most of the way for max thrust. Whatever it takes to stop the swing and roughly parallel the centreline.
If there is a big gap between V1 and Vr and you're feeling sharp, you can adjust the amount of rudder and try to gently regain centreline, but the important thing is to not "dance" on the rudder pedals (as you would with a tailwheel aircraft, for those of you who are ex-GA like me
). Squeeze in some rudder, STOP, observe the reaction, adjust with some more or less rudder, STOP, observe, etc.
Regardless, when you hear "Vr" or "rotate", lock your foot wherever it was (I find it useful to physically connect my heel with the cockpit floor and imagine it is now nailed there) and just keep the wings level with aileron, whilst slowly rotating at about 2˚ per second to an initial pitch target of ten degrees or just above. At this pitch attitude it only takes approx 5˚of bank to scrape the outboard engine (esp. on a RR), so it is critical to watch the sky-pointer like a hawk and keep the wings level regardless of crosswind or variations in thrust.
Whilst bubbers44 is correct in saying that rudder is the only answer for asymmetric thrust, the rotation phase is far too delicate (esp. on such a markedly swept-wing transport with such far-out underslung engines as the 747) to be playing around with all three axes simultaneously, at least for your average pilot (which most definitely includes me, Bob Hoover I ain't!). Hence the recommendation to "lock" the rudder and control roll with aileron until positively climbing.
Once you are safely away from the ground and the gear is selected up, you can safely "unlock" your rudder foot and concentrate on adjusting the rudder as required to centre the yoke as Boeing recommends.
Just my 2 eurocents worth.
MD
What my lot recommend is the technique others have put forward: as soon as you detect the swing, smoothly put your foot in, about halfway for a full derate with a high assumed temp (say D-TO 2 60˚) and most of the way for max thrust. Whatever it takes to stop the swing and roughly parallel the centreline.
If there is a big gap between V1 and Vr and you're feeling sharp, you can adjust the amount of rudder and try to gently regain centreline, but the important thing is to not "dance" on the rudder pedals (as you would with a tailwheel aircraft, for those of you who are ex-GA like me
). Squeeze in some rudder, STOP, observe the reaction, adjust with some more or less rudder, STOP, observe, etc.Regardless, when you hear "Vr" or "rotate", lock your foot wherever it was (I find it useful to physically connect my heel with the cockpit floor and imagine it is now nailed there) and just keep the wings level with aileron, whilst slowly rotating at about 2˚ per second to an initial pitch target of ten degrees or just above. At this pitch attitude it only takes approx 5˚of bank to scrape the outboard engine (esp. on a RR), so it is critical to watch the sky-pointer like a hawk and keep the wings level regardless of crosswind or variations in thrust.
Whilst bubbers44 is correct in saying that rudder is the only answer for asymmetric thrust, the rotation phase is far too delicate (esp. on such a markedly swept-wing transport with such far-out underslung engines as the 747) to be playing around with all three axes simultaneously, at least for your average pilot (which most definitely includes me, Bob Hoover I ain't!). Hence the recommendation to "lock" the rudder and control roll with aileron until positively climbing.
Once you are safely away from the ground and the gear is selected up, you can safely "unlock" your rudder foot and concentrate on adjusting the rudder as required to centre the yoke as Boeing recommends.
Just my 2 eurocents worth.
MD
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main dog
for many, many years we have started the V1 call 5 knots prior to V1 in order to complete the call by V1.
As far as trimming while on the ground, after the engine cut, before rotation, this was actually suggested to me by my sim instructor.
Again, we all know that the sim is not the plane, no matter how good you think it is.
IF the person who is having the problem really wants GOOD ADVICE...tell him to contact the people who maintain the simulator...we call them SIM TECHS here. They fly the sim better than any of our pilots...but its because they know the machine...not because they know how to fly!
for many, many years we have started the V1 call 5 knots prior to V1 in order to complete the call by V1.
As far as trimming while on the ground, after the engine cut, before rotation, this was actually suggested to me by my sim instructor.
Again, we all know that the sim is not the plane, no matter how good you think it is.
IF the person who is having the problem really wants GOOD ADVICE...tell him to contact the people who maintain the simulator...we call them SIM TECHS here. They fly the sim better than any of our pilots...but its because they know the machine...not because they know how to fly!
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My airline taught things in the sim I wouldn't do in the airplane. To me it was negative training to pass the sim check but not what I would do in a real airplane. One example is what would you do if you are approaching V1 and the wind causes a stagnation in acceleration at Reno with a 10 knot tailwind. Sim answer, abort. I have had it happen several times and knew I was past real V1 without the windshift so continued knowing I could add a notch of flaps if I was running out of runway. As long as nothing bad happens you continue to retirement. If you do it their way you run off the end of the runway in a high speed abort. You decide.
Remember the crew of the DC10 at ORD that followed company procedures after the engine fell off and legally crashed and killed all onboard following FAA and company procedures slowing to V2?
Remember the crew of the DC10 at ORD that followed company procedures after the engine fell off and legally crashed and killed all onboard following FAA and company procedures slowing to V2?
Top Dog
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"adding a notch of flap"
Am I right in saying most US 747 operators use Flaps 10 as standard, whereas most Europeans use 20? (For t/o)?
My experience observing with a Euro based carrier (Loadmaster for 20+ years on various 74s) is 20, occasionally 10 at hot/high airports.
And talking of flaps, may I ask an opinion of something I have seen. Flaps forgotten, TOGA, Idiot Alarm, T/L's closed, brakes, flaps selected, TOGA again & go (without vacating rwy) . Empty 747F on a 7 hour flight on a long rwy.... To those that know me, no it wasn't them. N- reg company that no longer exists.
Am I right in saying most US 747 operators use Flaps 10 as standard, whereas most Europeans use 20? (For t/o)?
My experience observing with a Euro based carrier (Loadmaster for 20+ years on various 74s) is 20, occasionally 10 at hot/high airports.
And talking of flaps, may I ask an opinion of something I have seen. Flaps forgotten, TOGA, Idiot Alarm, T/L's closed, brakes, flaps selected, TOGA again & go (without vacating rwy) . Empty 747F on a 7 hour flight on a long rwy.... To those that know me, no it wasn't them. N- reg company that no longer exists.
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bubbers is right about sim training vs real world.
and I sure do remember the KORD DC10 incident /accident, biggest single plane loss of life in the USA aviation.
Reno and stagnation...boy oh boy you are in a hard place there. I've needed full power to maintain glideslope during approach! And the A hole ahead of me had the same thing and didn't report windshear. We did as soon as we were on the ground under control, and dimwit ahead says: YEAH, we had that too. Thanks pal!
Putting a bit of trim in as soon as you recognize the engine out isn't a bad idea...you might even want to learn the exact setting...we are talking sim here. When one MUSCLE LOCKS UP THERE LEG HOLDING rudder pressure, one will have a problem very soon.
remember of course, as you accelerate, less rudder will be needed.
and during engine out landing, we were encouraged to have NFP take out rudder trim as we reduced thrust in the flare.
U should always be trimming. U are in better touch with the plane than muscling it. Finese.
and I sure do remember the KORD DC10 incident /accident, biggest single plane loss of life in the USA aviation.
Reno and stagnation...boy oh boy you are in a hard place there. I've needed full power to maintain glideslope during approach! And the A hole ahead of me had the same thing and didn't report windshear. We did as soon as we were on the ground under control, and dimwit ahead says: YEAH, we had that too. Thanks pal!
Putting a bit of trim in as soon as you recognize the engine out isn't a bad idea...you might even want to learn the exact setting...we are talking sim here. When one MUSCLE LOCKS UP THERE LEG HOLDING rudder pressure, one will have a problem very soon.
remember of course, as you accelerate, less rudder will be needed.
and during engine out landing, we were encouraged to have NFP take out rudder trim as we reduced thrust in the flare.
U should always be trimming. U are in better touch with the plane than muscling it. Finese.
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SSR, I was probably guilty of a late windshear report going into Portland. I was flying an MD80 and reports were of moderate turbulence on short final and almost a 30 knot crosswind on a wet runway. I added 20 knots to my approach speed and lost it about 50 ft so pushed up the power and got a great landing. Clearing the runway a United 727 was landing and saw a blast of smoke out of the engines as they tried to flare. They hit hard and bounced onto the nose gear and I thought they were going to leave the runway. One of our airline pilots ready for take off said United, I would check your wingtips. They replied we will. Sometimes you have to catch your breath to warn others.
I think you should always follow company procedures that make sense. As a PIC you should put your passengers and crew first.
I think you should always follow company procedures that make sense. As a PIC you should put your passengers and crew first.
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that's a good story. believe me I understand that you have to take a second to regroup after a tough landing. And with reports like what you said, anyone would be on their toes.
My situation at Reno was a beautiful clear day...calm winds at the surface. Traffic ahead, a 737, had been off the runway for over 2 minutes...he had landed long and made the LAST turnoff on 16R at reno...the LAST turnoff!!!!
we made our pirep on the runway...ATC was doing both ground and tower on tower freq so the 737 heard us.
I would have called it a dry microburst now that I know more!
That UAL 727 ...that would have been hard to watch!
but I digress.
My situation at Reno was a beautiful clear day...calm winds at the surface. Traffic ahead, a 737, had been off the runway for over 2 minutes...he had landed long and made the LAST turnoff on 16R at reno...the LAST turnoff!!!!
we made our pirep on the runway...ATC was doing both ground and tower on tower freq so the 737 heard us.
I would have called it a dry microburst now that I know more!
That UAL 727 ...that would have been hard to watch!
but I digress.
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When one MUSCLE LOCKS UP THERE LEG HOLDING rudder pressure, one will have a problem very soon.
Now that I've let it out of my system I'll continue to nurture myself from this thread.
By the way, how does one recognise when one has put too much rudder for the condition?
P.S.: Great thread!
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fantastic advice everyone!! good luck with the training RandomPerson.
you are training on one of the true jets of all time . . Enjoy while others dream.
gentleman / ladies . . I will definately take up all your advice should i be lucky enough to fly this beautiful machine one day . . .
you are training on one of the true jets of all time . . Enjoy while others dream.
gentleman / ladies . . I will definately take up all your advice should i be lucky enough to fly this beautiful machine one day . . .
Some common errors:
1) over compensation for yaw on the r/w
2) rotating before VR
3)transiting from 'visual' to PFD too early
4) failing to call 'gear-up'
5) pedalling the rudder pedals after lift-off and creating instability
6) Insufficient scan of 'slip/skid' indicator
7) Disconnecting A/T and reducing power prior to level off and consequently reducing NET CLB and prolonging acceleration.
I think everything else has been well covered by previous posters, however I don't like the advise of rudder trim on the r/w. Thats why God gave us feet. Squeeze rudder, rotate slowly, lock rudder and fly the slip and skid. The 'down' control horn always is an indicator of which foot to squeeze. Be gentle, she is big and fat but she still has feelings!
1) over compensation for yaw on the r/w
2) rotating before VR
3)transiting from 'visual' to PFD too early
4) failing to call 'gear-up'
5) pedalling the rudder pedals after lift-off and creating instability
6) Insufficient scan of 'slip/skid' indicator
7) Disconnecting A/T and reducing power prior to level off and consequently reducing NET CLB and prolonging acceleration.
I think everything else has been well covered by previous posters, however I don't like the advise of rudder trim on the r/w. Thats why God gave us feet. Squeeze rudder, rotate slowly, lock rudder and fly the slip and skid. The 'down' control horn always is an indicator of which foot to squeeze. Be gentle, she is big and fat but she still has feelings!
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I agree. Don't fly the airplane off the trim. Fly the airplane, then trim.
Taking time to trim while handling an engine-out on the runway is an unwise idea in the sim or in the real world. Concentrate on maintaining the centerline, pitch to put the pipper on the 10 degree line, and fly into V2. Your leg isn't going to fall off in the few minutes it takes to get airborne, get established, get turned, and start cleaning up. The trim is going to change considerably as one begins cleaning up and accelerating anyway. Don't complicate it and your takeoff by trimming rudder on the runway.
Taking time to trim while handling an engine-out on the runway is an unwise idea in the sim or in the real world. Concentrate on maintaining the centerline, pitch to put the pipper on the 10 degree line, and fly into V2. Your leg isn't going to fall off in the few minutes it takes to get airborne, get established, get turned, and start cleaning up. The trim is going to change considerably as one begins cleaning up and accelerating anyway. Don't complicate it and your takeoff by trimming rudder on the runway.
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Pedant's corner
remember of course, as you accelerate, less rudder will be needed.
MD
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who said boeing said anything
boeing expects you to be a decent pilot.
trimming is part of being a decent pilot...I'm not saying to drop everything and look down at the trim
airplane yaws right, press left rudder, give some trim to the left and off you go
the really wonderful pilots, in tune with their plane, are trimming things out without even thinking
except airbus pilots I guess (pitch trim etc)
boeing expects you to be a decent pilot.
trimming is part of being a decent pilot...I'm not saying to drop everything and look down at the trim
airplane yaws right, press left rudder, give some trim to the left and off you go
the really wonderful pilots, in tune with their plane, are trimming things out without even thinking
except airbus pilots I guess (pitch trim etc)
763 jock
Apart from sevenstrokeroll and his sim instructor, I don't know, but you're correct - it's rubbish!
Best Regards
Bellerophon
...trimming the rudder whilst accelerating towards VR. Who comes up with this rubbish?...
Best Regards
Bellerophon
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I'm not a "really wonderful pilot". However, Boeing instructors taught me how to fly the 767 in Seattle. No mention was ever made of applying rudder trim on the ground. I've never tried it or needed it, my leg muscles are quite capable of controlling the swing until I have time to apply rudder trim, even with full thrust.