Instruments Procedures
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aterpster, discontinuing the RNAV GPS approach isn't an emergency IMHO but a maneuver based on accuracy's degradation prediction called RAIM, that doesn't mean you've lost the accuracy yet it's a prediction. We're sliding off into a complete separate topic here cover by the FAA as well. In order to be eligible to fly this kinda approaches you must be an approved operator using approved equipment and certified staff etc. Long story short you must check the availability of GPS and file a none GPS alternate. Prior to start the approach somewhere 2 NM prior to IAF the RAIM function of your on board equipment once again checks the integrity of the whole mission and if you're given no warnings you're good to go. The chances for you to lose GPS Primary are nearly NIL and even if you do like you described you still have sufficient accuracy to conduct missed approach. Of course it'd be easier to simply tune a VOR but why bother in the age of GPS. BTW a modern jet easily makes up to 11% climb gradient in normal conditions. No afterburner needed. Aircraft Performance Database V2.0 - Details 
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this is the extract from FAA AIM whether right or wrong well it's not up to me to decide.
MINIMUM SECTOR ALTITUDE [ICAO] — The lowest altitude which may be used under emergency conditions which will provide a minimum clearance of 300m (1,000 feet) above all obstacles located in an area contained within a sector of a circle of 46 km (25 NM) radius centered on a radio aid to navigation. Go figure
MINIMUM SECTOR ALTITUDE [ICAO] — The lowest altitude which may be used under emergency conditions which will provide a minimum clearance of 300m (1,000 feet) above all obstacles located in an area contained within a sector of a circle of 46 km (25 NM) radius centered on a radio aid to navigation. Go figure
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9.G
You sound a lot like a guy who used to appear on the Usenet IFR Forum. He was a MSFS pilot and read all the aeronautical information he could get his hands on. Yet, he had zero flight time, no certificates; nada.
What are the airman's certificates and ratings you hold? Total flight time? Any other qualifications you care to share.
aterpster, discontinuing the RNAV GPS approach isn't an emergency IMHO but a maneuver based on accuracy's degradation prediction called RAIM, that doesn't mean you've lost the accuracy yet it's a prediction. We're sliding off into a complete separate topic here cover by the FAA as well. In order to be eligible to fly this kinda approaches you must be an approved operator using approved equipment and certified staff etc. Long story short you must check the availability of GPS and file a none GPS alternate. Prior to start the approach somewhere 2 NM prior to IAF the RAIM function of your on board equipment once again checks the integrity of the whole mission and if you're given no warnings you're good to go. The chances for you to lose GPS Primary are nearly NIL and even if you do like you described you still have sufficient accuracy to conduct missed approach. Of course it'd be easier to simply tune a VOR but why bother in the age of GPS. BTW a modern jet easily makes up to 11% climb gradient in normal conditions. No afterburner needed. Aircraft Performance Database V2.0 - Details
What are the airman's certificates and ratings you hold? Total flight time? Any other qualifications you care to share.
All I'll add is that if a go-around or missed approach is begun in IMC below the MSA, I hope you do it via the " black lines" on the chart. No diverse, omni-directional climb to the MSA. 
GF
GF
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9.G:
I work in the field of RNAV procedures and you pretty much do not know what you are talking about.
Unlike you, I have my credentials in my public profile.
aterpster, take the info for granted or check it. I'm willing to discuss matters not my credentials.
Unlike you, I have my credentials in my public profile.
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I thought this was a question about MSA? It seems that nobody got it right, mind you I did check my son's version of MSFS and saw several references here that were evidently taken from that game.
Soooooo,
ICAO Rules of the Air, Annex 2
Procedures for Air Navigation Services, PANS-ATM (Doc 4444)…
Minimum Sector Altitude - The lowest altitude with may be used which will provide a minimum clearance of 300m (1000 feet) above all obstacles located in an area contained within a sector of a circle of 46 kilometres (25 NM) radious centred on a radio aid to navigation.
and, PANS-OPS (Doc 8168)…
Minimum Sector Altitudes or Terminal Arrival Altitudes are established for each aerodrome and provide at least 300 m (1000 feet) obstacle clearance with 46km (25nm) of the navigation aid, initial approach fix or intermediate fix associated with the approach procedure for that aerodrome.
Both can be found in the Jeppesen Airway manual (Revision date 21 Jan 2011), ATC section, pages 107 and 223.
Soooooo,
ICAO Rules of the Air, Annex 2
Procedures for Air Navigation Services, PANS-ATM (Doc 4444)…
Minimum Sector Altitude - The lowest altitude with may be used which will provide a minimum clearance of 300m (1000 feet) above all obstacles located in an area contained within a sector of a circle of 46 kilometres (25 NM) radious centred on a radio aid to navigation.
and, PANS-OPS (Doc 8168)…
Minimum Sector Altitudes or Terminal Arrival Altitudes are established for each aerodrome and provide at least 300 m (1000 feet) obstacle clearance with 46km (25nm) of the navigation aid, initial approach fix or intermediate fix associated with the approach procedure for that aerodrome.
Both can be found in the Jeppesen Airway manual (Revision date 21 Jan 2011), ATC section, pages 107 and 223.
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PappyJ:
The "may be used" doesn't apply to the U.S, except in an emergency.
Further, as you cite, they provide 1,000 feet of obstacle clearance. In the Designated Mountainous Areas (DMAs) of the U.S. the pilot is required to maintain 2,000 feet off published routes, and MSAs are not published routes or sectors under FARs Part 95 or 97.
The rules vary all over the map (literally), but what I state is for FAA-dom.
Minimum Sector Altitude - The lowest altitude with may be used which will provide a minimum clearance of 300m (1000 feet) above all obstacles located in an area contained within a sector of a circle of 46 kilometres (25 NM) radious centred on a radio aid to navigation.
Further, as you cite, they provide 1,000 feet of obstacle clearance. In the Designated Mountainous Areas (DMAs) of the U.S. the pilot is required to maintain 2,000 feet off published routes, and MSAs are not published routes or sectors under FARs Part 95 or 97.
The rules vary all over the map (literally), but what I state is for FAA-dom.
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sevenstrokeroll:
Many of us worked to get those in the U.S. Alas, they don't always fit. And, centers would far rather use their MIAs, at least when they have you on radar.
Having said that, MORAs could save a pilot who has the skills and is a world of hurt, especially lost comm, etc.
you guys need to understand the GRID MORA (not all of you...some of you know)...that might be helpful
Having said that, MORAs could save a pilot who has the skills and is a world of hurt, especially lost comm, etc.
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aterpster. The question was about MSA, not designated mountainous areas, GRID MORA, etc. Focus son, focus.
But I do need to ask; How would MORA save a guy suffering from a lost com? Do you yanks have new rules about Comm Failures that require us to descend to the MORA 7 minutes after recognition that the radios ain't working?
sevenstrokeroll. I think you may be confusing MSA and MEA. MSA is always within the reception range of a radio aid to navigation. MEA (Minimum Enroute Altitude) is another story, and often includes MRA (Minimum Reception Altitude) which is often higher than the MEA.
It is agreed that the FAA has several oddities within their rules and procedures, but since over 65% of Pprune readers are European, it would seem that the majority will be interested in ICAO, EU-OPS, JAA, etc. What you yanks need to learn, is that outside of the USA, there is a thriving, safe and prosperous aviation community.
But I do need to ask; How would MORA save a guy suffering from a lost com? Do you yanks have new rules about Comm Failures that require us to descend to the MORA 7 minutes after recognition that the radios ain't working?
sevenstrokeroll. I think you may be confusing MSA and MEA. MSA is always within the reception range of a radio aid to navigation. MEA (Minimum Enroute Altitude) is another story, and often includes MRA (Minimum Reception Altitude) which is often higher than the MEA.
It is agreed that the FAA has several oddities within their rules and procedures, but since over 65% of Pprune readers are European, it would seem that the majority will be interested in ICAO, EU-OPS, JAA, etc. What you yanks need to learn, is that outside of the USA, there is a thriving, safe and prosperous aviation community.
Last edited by PappyJ; 22nd Feb 2011 at 02:00.
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papy j
I don't think I am confusing anything. Besides being an atp and a captain for a major airline, I spent years as an instrument instructor.
MSA
Grid MORA
MEA
MOCA
MRA
and even MAA
Let's see, us YANKS invented the airplane, did the first ''blind'' landings, and were the first to fly non stop from New York to Paris. First across the atlantic in airplanes, first around the world in airplanes.
Oh yeah, we didnt use too many spitfires in WW2...but quite a few commonwealth nations used planes like the P40 and F4F.
And we have lots of mountains to worry about. And no where in our rules is there a seven minute rule about lost com
help me out here aterpster!
European...you bet you are!
I don't think I am confusing anything. Besides being an atp and a captain for a major airline, I spent years as an instrument instructor.
MSA
Grid MORA
MEA
MOCA
MRA
and even MAA
Let's see, us YANKS invented the airplane, did the first ''blind'' landings, and were the first to fly non stop from New York to Paris. First across the atlantic in airplanes, first around the world in airplanes.
Oh yeah, we didnt use too many spitfires in WW2...but quite a few commonwealth nations used planes like the P40 and F4F.
And we have lots of mountains to worry about. And no where in our rules is there a seven minute rule about lost com
help me out here aterpster!
European...you bet you are!
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PappyJ:
I'll try to focus, dad.
Some of us yanks check in here because we are interested in aviation events and accidents around the world. Weird, isn't it.
aterpster. The question was about MSA, not designated mountainous areas, GRID MORA, etc. Focus son, focus.
Some of us yanks check in here because we are interested in aviation events and accidents around the world. Weird, isn't it.
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aterpster
as you know there are all sorts of altitudes...even MANDATORY altitudes...not too high, not too low...just right or traffic and so many other things don't work right.
its getting to the point where I don't care about these ignorant chaps who can't buy an AIM or TERPS
good luck to you aterpster...hope the wx is nice down by san clemen te
as you know there are all sorts of altitudes...even MANDATORY altitudes...not too high, not too low...just right or traffic and so many other things don't work right.
its getting to the point where I don't care about these ignorant chaps who can't buy an AIM or TERPS
good luck to you aterpster...hope the wx is nice down by san clemen te
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Since the US ATP was the easiest certificate I have obtained of my five ATPL's (Japan, JAA, and several others). I can't say that I'm impressed by a "ATP holding Airline Captain."
Also, although the US may have built the first airplane, please remember that they were first conceived by an Italian.
Finally, there are two "P's" in Pappy!
Also, although the US may have built the first airplane, please remember that they were first conceived by an Italian.
Finally, there are two "P's" in Pappy!
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PappyJ, there's two different definitions Minimum SAFE altitude and minimum Sector altitude. The latter one is ICAO the first one is FAA. We can all benefit a great deal from other's knowledge and experience. The fact that aviation business is predominately run in English gives the Yanks, Canucks and Aussies an advantage. It's clearly visible in the new approach to the AOM in the EU OPS mainly done to harmonize it with FAA. Admittedly it's clearer and better concept. However it always boils down to the famous RTFQ so understanding isn't about language it's about effort. Provokative slanders from both sides are contra-productive.
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pappy j.
US atp easy? sure....its what you do with your certificate, not how easy it is to get.
I still get a kick out of all the stuff you have to go through to get the atp in different countries.
But after you write down your exams, pages and pages of written material...none of that makes you a pilot.
flying a plane makes you a pilot.
I think flying was conceived by the greeks...a certain fellow who flew too near the sun etc.
US atp easy? sure....its what you do with your certificate, not how easy it is to get.
I still get a kick out of all the stuff you have to go through to get the atp in different countries.
But after you write down your exams, pages and pages of written material...none of that makes you a pilot.
flying a plane makes you a pilot.
I think flying was conceived by the greeks...a certain fellow who flew too near the sun etc.
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PappyJ:
I can only speak for my own experience. When I was a young puppy (unlike a "pappy") at TWA in 1967, the director of flight training gave us student captains a very good lecture. He said, "I can rate a monkey in any TWA airplane" (ATP and type rating). "What you are going to learn about being an airline captain will take place in your minimum of 70 hours of line training with two experienced check airmen after you leave here with your ATC type rating in pocket."
I would think you would have a great grasp of that concept.
Since the US ATP was the easiest certificate I have obtained of my five ATPL's (Japan, JAA, and several others). I can't say that I'm impressed by a "ATP holding Airline Captain."
I would think you would have a great grasp of that concept.
