jet/bird evasive action
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misdagain
the bank angle is suggested to move the engines out of the plane of the bird formation...climbing is great when you can...but lets say the ''spott' of birds is constant in your windown and you are already climbing the best you can??????
I would also like to think the average atp could handle 60 degrees of bank in an emergency.
the bank angle is suggested to move the engines out of the plane of the bird formation...climbing is great when you can...but lets say the ''spott' of birds is constant in your windown and you are already climbing the best you can??????
I would also like to think the average atp could handle 60 degrees of bank in an emergency.
Quote from Canuckbirdstrike:
Lights are beneficial at increasing aircraft visibility... The challenge we face is that new aircraft engines are quiet which removes one other bird sensory mechanism for detecting aircraft.
The biggest I ever struck, fortunately, was a migratory Stork, one of a flight of seven or eight. We were all heading north over the Sea of Marmara to Istanbul, so they wouldn't have seen us or our lights as we caught them up from behind. CFM-56s are fairly quiet on the approach. 5 went right; 2 went left; one hesitated briefly. Pity: could have missed him easily if I'd gone around.
Perhaps we need a loud, multi-pitch horn! (The ground mechanic horn works in the air but is too feeble... I did use it once successfully on the ground when a bird blocked the taxiway.)
Lights are beneficial at increasing aircraft visibility... The challenge we face is that new aircraft engines are quiet which removes one other bird sensory mechanism for detecting aircraft.
The biggest I ever struck, fortunately, was a migratory Stork, one of a flight of seven or eight. We were all heading north over the Sea of Marmara to Istanbul, so they wouldn't have seen us or our lights as we caught them up from behind. CFM-56s are fairly quiet on the approach. 5 went right; 2 went left; one hesitated briefly. Pity: could have missed him easily if I'd gone around.
Perhaps we need a loud, multi-pitch horn! (The ground mechanic horn works in the air but is too feeble... I did use it once successfully on the ground when a bird blocked the taxiway.)
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You experts crack me up, I have passed and hit many birds in my 20000 hours and there was never time to avoid them, and 60 degrees? You will have fun explaining that at the hearing and if you injure a PAX or FA you are hosed.
Dan
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I'm just a Cessna/Piper driver, but I would tend to agree that doing a quick roll into a 60° bank instead of just climbing or descending sounds pretty foolish, especially on the big iron with pax in the back. I've had an encounter or three with birds on final or just after takeoff and a quick pull up or pushover has always been sufficient.
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the purpose is to talk about things like this. so, why didn't "sully" climb?
he was already climbing...not much left to give. I have proposed a method to take the engines out of the formation of birds.
no one wants to hurt a FA and I would hope that in a ''sully'' like situation the passengers would be strapped in?
and if you could avoid hitting another plane, wouldn't a bank be used (if appropriate...asuming no TCAS) even at the risk of a FA being knocked off her feet?
Believe me, some of my best friends are FA's...
he was already climbing...not much left to give. I have proposed a method to take the engines out of the formation of birds.
no one wants to hurt a FA and I would hope that in a ''sully'' like situation the passengers would be strapped in?
and if you could avoid hitting another plane, wouldn't a bank be used (if appropriate...asuming no TCAS) even at the risk of a FA being knocked off her feet?
Believe me, some of my best friends are FA's...
CaptainDan80;
FYI, Canuckbirdstrike is probably the finest expert on birdstrikes on PPRuNe.
In addition to sevenstrokeroll's excellent suggestions, (tho' not sure of the 60deg bank!), I would add that keeping the speed at/below 250kts below 10 preserves greater chances for lesser damage in any collision. I've seen 350kts @ 6k in the data and it really makes one wonder what, (besides potentially a bird) what's going through their minds...
sevenstrokeroll, I believe it is law in Canada and the US to have all lights on below 10. I agree with you in the US and had mine on until FL180 as well. Though they really rumble, the A320's lights can be extended up to VMO, so all the aircraft's lights are available for flight.
PJ2
You experts crack me up...
In addition to sevenstrokeroll's excellent suggestions, (tho' not sure of the 60deg bank!), I would add that keeping the speed at/below 250kts below 10 preserves greater chances for lesser damage in any collision. I've seen 350kts @ 6k in the data and it really makes one wonder what, (besides potentially a bird) what's going through their minds...
interesting chris...out of habit I always have all lights on for takeoff and landing and below Positive Control Airspace (FL180 in usa). (fog and odd vis situations aside).
its too bad that A320 can't put all lights on in flight.
its too bad that A320 can't put all lights on in flight.
PJ2
bird training
in the US we don't have any bird training!
Today's birds show no respect.
I've only flown lighties, too, but one thing I've noticed with all bird encounters except one, was that a bank immediately prompted the birds to bank away in the opposite direction. Maybe 60 degrees would be necessary to move an engine out of the strike plane, but less might be adequate if dealing with birds that have perceived the approaching a/c?
I guess they know P of F pretty well, and are interested in avoiding what they (often too late) perceive to be a predator.
The one time mentioned above was a large hawk crossing final in front of me, left to right. We eyeballed each other. He wasn't going to give way. I did. He just carried on, victorious.
As a tower controller I gave a bird warning to the crew of a departing 737 once, he would've been above 100kt, I guess, and there were about 4 large gulls crossing the runway ahead, about 100ft AGL. He passed on thanks afterward, and mentioned that he'd adjusted the rotate so as to go under them. The birds acted agitated as he'd approached, but there was no clear cohesive avoiding action taken by them - it all looked fairly random.
I guess they know P of F pretty well, and are interested in avoiding what they (often too late) perceive to be a predator.
The one time mentioned above was a large hawk crossing final in front of me, left to right. We eyeballed each other. He wasn't going to give way. I did. He just carried on, victorious.
As a tower controller I gave a bird warning to the crew of a departing 737 once, he would've been above 100kt, I guess, and there were about 4 large gulls crossing the runway ahead, about 100ft AGL. He passed on thanks afterward, and mentioned that he'd adjusted the rotate so as to go under them. The birds acted agitated as he'd approached, but there was no clear cohesive avoiding action taken by them - it all looked fairly random.
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I am unfortunately based in a city which seems to be the favourite stopover of millions of migratory birds, had a few close calls last season (lots of bloody noses (our aircraft), a whacked Kruger flap (bird bounced off and hit the engine cowling), but thankfully no surging engines or broken windshields - and from my point of view there is not much you can do. Before takeoff, if you see a flock of birds sitting by the side of the runway, I guess you can only really alert the tower and hope he sends the inspection vehicle to scare them away, on rotation, you might be able to adjust your rate in order not to hit as many birds... In the air? Unless on final approach in landing config from what I have seen the tiny dot on the windscreen gets bigger so quickly there isnt anything you can do about it anymore. Someone tell me please, were you guys serious with 60° of bank? Try explaining that to your chief pilot, seriously. What if you lose an engine in that situation? Don't even want to think about it...
About the weather radar - I suspect the old , high powered radars fitted to older airframes might actually cause discomfort even to people standing dozens of yards away, but the new, extremely low power WXRs? I doubt the birds would notice...
About the weather radar - I suspect the old , high powered radars fitted to older airframes might actually cause discomfort even to people standing dozens of yards away, but the new, extremely low power WXRs? I doubt the birds would notice...
A320 lights - clarification
Quote from PJ2:
Though they really rumble, the A320's lights can be extended up to VMO, so all the aircraft's lights are available for flight.
My first post was poorly worded. What I had in mind was that turn-off lights are particularly useful bow-conspicuity devices at night (and lights are still mandatory in the US below 10,000ft?). The problem with the A320 family is that they are attached to the nose-gear leg, so are not available in the climb; only on the approach.
And yes, the landing lights/taxi lights do rumble enough to provoke the odd comment from cabin crew (particularly in those happier days when the cockpit door was unlocked...).
Though they really rumble, the A320's lights can be extended up to VMO, so all the aircraft's lights are available for flight.
My first post was poorly worded. What I had in mind was that turn-off lights are particularly useful bow-conspicuity devices at night (and lights are still mandatory in the US below 10,000ft?). The problem with the A320 family is that they are attached to the nose-gear leg, so are not available in the climb; only on the approach.
And yes, the landing lights/taxi lights do rumble enough to provoke the odd comment from cabin crew (particularly in those happier days when the cockpit door was unlocked...).
And yes, the landing lights/taxi lights do rumble enough to provoke the odd comment from cabin crew (particularly in those happier days when the cockpit door was unlocked...).
So a question:
At 250kt, you are traveling 421 ft/sec. At what distance is the "average" flock of birds visible? In other words how long have you really got to react? At a mile you've got a little over 12 secs... but I doubt you see anything that small that far out?
In reality are you looking out the window with sufficient focus to see and take avoiding action anyway?
I am a little disturbed by the idea of a 60 degree bank avoidance maneuver to say the least...
... I have visions of Starbucks coffee flying all over the place, along with sundry other items, small children and crap falling from overheads. 
Has anyone seen any research on whether avoidance maneuvers are effective - a climb seems the least problematic, but on aircraft with under-slung engines does that simply move the engines inline with the problem?
Now the idea of training the birds....
I've tried the same with the deer that seem to populate my street. They used to have a habit of jumping out at the most inopportune moments, but after meeting one face-to-face while walking the dog late one night (damn thing was near invisible in the dark), and having a few stiff words, they seem to be behaving themselves lately...
- GY
At 250kt, you are traveling 421 ft/sec. At what distance is the "average" flock of birds visible? In other words how long have you really got to react? At a mile you've got a little over 12 secs... but I doubt you see anything that small that far out?
In reality are you looking out the window with sufficient focus to see and take avoiding action anyway?
I am a little disturbed by the idea of a 60 degree bank avoidance maneuver to say the least...
... I have visions of Starbucks coffee flying all over the place, along with sundry other items, small children and crap falling from overheads. Has anyone seen any research on whether avoidance maneuvers are effective - a climb seems the least problematic, but on aircraft with under-slung engines does that simply move the engines inline with the problem?
Now the idea of training the birds....
I've tried the same with the deer that seem to populate my street. They used to have a habit of jumping out at the most inopportune moments, but after meeting one face-to-face while walking the dog late one night (damn thing was near invisible in the dark), and having a few stiff words, they seem to be behaving themselves lately...
- GY
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Birdstrikes, effects and preventative action
Having read the above IMHO I would like to make a few points.
The first is to separate damage to the airframe from damage to the engine.
To reduce airframe damage ( which is usually non-catasthropic for flight safety) it is best to keep 250kts below 10,000', to reduce forward speed- 1/2mv^2 etc.
Engine damage, particularly double-engine strike damage is much more serious. The most important factor is to reduce the tip rotation speed by reducing engine power to the minimum possible for safe flight.
It is official Airbus policy ( apologies I can't find the Airbus Safety Bulletin just now on the Web, but it is there somewhere ) if encountering birds on approach , to continue at as low an engine power as possible.
Under no circumstances is a Go Around at high power to be attempted.
This has been my company's policy (A320/330) for a while now.
With regard to the "60 bank", good luck to anyone trying that in O'Hare on 27L, with an AA777 on port on 28 and a UA/(Connie?) 757 on 27R on starboard !
Hope this adds some light.
The first is to separate damage to the airframe from damage to the engine.
To reduce airframe damage ( which is usually non-catasthropic for flight safety) it is best to keep 250kts below 10,000', to reduce forward speed- 1/2mv^2 etc.
Engine damage, particularly double-engine strike damage is much more serious. The most important factor is to reduce the tip rotation speed by reducing engine power to the minimum possible for safe flight.
It is official Airbus policy ( apologies I can't find the Airbus Safety Bulletin just now on the Web, but it is there somewhere ) if encountering birds on approach , to continue at as low an engine power as possible.
Under no circumstances is a Go Around at high power to be attempted.
This has been my company's policy (A320/330) for a while now.
With regard to the "60 bank", good luck to anyone trying that in O'Hare on 27L, with an AA777 on port on 28 and a UA/(Connie?) 757 on 27R on starboard !
Hope this adds some light.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarageYears
I am a little disturbed by the idea of a 60 degree bank avoidance maneuver to say the least...
... I have visions of Starbucks coffee flying all over the place, along with sundry other items, small children and crap falling from overheads. 
What airline is this? I can't believe I never thought about putting those noisy buggers up in the bins!
Originally Posted by GarageYears
I am a little disturbed by the idea of a 60 degree bank avoidance maneuver to say the least...
... I have visions of Starbucks coffee flying all over the place, along with sundry other items, small children and crap falling from overheads. What airline is this? I can't believe I never thought about putting those noisy buggers up in the bins!
- GY
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this thread is picking up and I am glad.
more people, pilot input etc.
regarding the 60 degree bank...so many are concerned about it. would 45degrees make you happier?
the point of the whole thread is to keep your plane safe and flying. sully sucked birds in both engines...while clmbing is a great idea...MOST OF THE TIME...when you can't climb, would putting the engines (if underslung) out of the bird formation be a good thing? I offered the bank as one way of saving at least one engine.
you of course would have to know if you would bank right into another plane...the same thing for climbing.
but I am very glad people are thinking here.
as far as telling the chief pilot anything, I would just refer to the emergency authority of the pilot in command...the birds were not complying with an IFR clearance and I was...I had to do something!
;-0
more people, pilot input etc.
regarding the 60 degree bank...so many are concerned about it. would 45degrees make you happier?
the point of the whole thread is to keep your plane safe and flying. sully sucked birds in both engines...while clmbing is a great idea...MOST OF THE TIME...when you can't climb, would putting the engines (if underslung) out of the bird formation be a good thing? I offered the bank as one way of saving at least one engine.
you of course would have to know if you would bank right into another plane...the same thing for climbing.
but I am very glad people are thinking here.
as far as telling the chief pilot anything, I would just refer to the emergency authority of the pilot in command...the birds were not complying with an IFR clearance and I was...I had to do something!
;-0
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while clmbing is a great idea...MOST OF THE TIME...when you can't climb, would putting the engines (if underslung) out of the bird formation be a good thing? I offered the bank as one way of saving at least one engine.
Most of the bird encounters I've had have been during the final approach or immediately after airborne. So flying at or about Vref or V2 and 60 degrees of bank isn't where you want to be is it? That's rhetorical.
Any other bird strikes I've had have generally been medium level 250-300kts and there was NO time to maneuver several hundred tonnes of aeroplane.
It's a nice idea but trying to outmaneuver a seagull in tonnes of unmaneuverable aeroplane isn't going to work.
Any other bird strikes I've had have generally been medium level 250-300kts and there was NO time to maneuver several hundred tonnes of aeroplane.
It's a nice idea but trying to outmaneuver a seagull in tonnes of unmaneuverable aeroplane isn't going to work.
It's a nice idea but trying to outmaneuver a seagull in tonnes of unmaneuverable aeroplane isn't going to work.
That was my point. Traveling at 420+ ft/sec in a very heavy airplane is going to take more than a few seconds to significantly change direction at which point you either have or have not hit the dang birds anyway, and if you did, you may find yourself in a significantly compromised position, so perhaps being in a straight and level attitude is preferable to a 45 degree bank - nasty if the low-side engine sucked in a goose...
- GY
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I flew into the most turkey buzzard flocks of birds flying into the Tegucigalpa, Honduras valley and even though my chief pilots grounded a few airplanes with bird strikes, I never did. I looked way ahead of the airplane and also asked the FO to look for the dots of buzzards. We always avoided them except once when at 500 ft on take off with the FO flying this buzzard was in front of us and we turned opposite our clearance to miss him. He turned with us so we reversed to our departure clearance and he reversed his flight path and hit about 2 ft. over my head in a 757. We stayed at a lower altitude because the 4 lb bird could have busted some rivets. Yes you can avoid birds if you look out the window. He said I will climb, they always dive. I agreed. This one didn't. Sully didn't see the birds. I have missed thousands flying between flocks and looking out the window. Honduras doesn't load you down much with frequency changes to distract you.