Urumqi Escape Routes?
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Urumqi Escape Routes?
Can someone please explain the Urumqi escape routes plotted in dashed lines on the Aerad/Thales upper airways charts?
They all seem to route over the high terrain which is up to 21,000ft?
I presume these are for pax oxygen requirements, but I cant see that they are allowing for further descent?
I'm currently on B744 freighters so not an issue with hours of flight deck oxygen, but it also crossed my mind routing down there recently the 2 eng driftdown consideration if we lost an engine ...
They all seem to route over the high terrain which is up to 21,000ft?
I presume these are for pax oxygen requirements, but I cant see that they are allowing for further descent?
I'm currently on B744 freighters so not an issue with hours of flight deck oxygen, but it also crossed my mind routing down there recently the 2 eng driftdown consideration if we lost an engine ...
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the 2 eng driftdown consideration if we lost an engine ...
Note: You can cross the entire mountain range on 3 engines.
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I have yet to experience multiple engine failure. Reasonable people may be curious as to why you would burden your mind about a 2-eng driftdown in a B744. . . . Are you a cadet pilot?
Note: You can cross the entire mountain range on 3 engines.
Note: You can cross the entire mountain range on 3 engines.
A reasonable person and a court of law would be perfectly corrrect to ask an operator and a captain if, having suffered an engine failure, what his plans were if a second failed.
I know that you can cross mountain ranges on 3 engines, but that is not the point. You must have a plan or would you, as it appears, just blunder onwards?
You must accept that an uncontained inboard failure may result in collateral damage to the adjacent outer - as an example.
At my ex-company we had procedures to deal with both oxygen and engine failures around Urumqi and we would also discuss/review 2 engine performance when , for example, departing SFO etc when eastbound due to terrain.
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The problem with having thousands of hours 4-eng flights over several decades is that if you work for a bottom shelf airline or is not to sharp yourself, your knowledge tends to be several decades outdated, too.
For the last 10 years or so - since the LROPS requirements came - any 4-eng ops must be planned to allow a sudden dual engine failure, driftdown, cruise and landing (conditions apply).
While this requirement is not limiting in most parts of the world, there are areas - including North-of-the-Big-Stones, where planning can be a bit tricky - unless of course you fly the fail-proof 747 and disregard or dont know current regulations..
3- and 4-engine have the same decompression challenges as 4-engine aircraft, hence the new FAA ETOPS regulations ( now also valid for quads). That is the reason pax aircraft flying in this part of the world, notably on AWY L999, carry enhanced oxygen systems. The standard 15 or 22 minutes versions will empty before reaching over low terrain, and you will have to plan carefully with escape routes.
Noblues, the generic escape routes must be adjusted for your actual situation (aircraft, oxygen, descent profile etc), but your question is absolutely relevant, so dont be put off by an ignorant, who retired (or should) decades ago.
For the last 10 years or so - since the LROPS requirements came - any 4-eng ops must be planned to allow a sudden dual engine failure, driftdown, cruise and landing (conditions apply).
While this requirement is not limiting in most parts of the world, there are areas - including North-of-the-Big-Stones, where planning can be a bit tricky - unless of course you fly the fail-proof 747 and disregard or dont know current regulations..
3- and 4-engine have the same decompression challenges as 4-engine aircraft, hence the new FAA ETOPS regulations ( now also valid for quads). That is the reason pax aircraft flying in this part of the world, notably on AWY L999, carry enhanced oxygen systems. The standard 15 or 22 minutes versions will empty before reaching over low terrain, and you will have to plan carefully with escape routes.
Noblues, the generic escape routes must be adjusted for your actual situation (aircraft, oxygen, descent profile etc), but your question is absolutely relevant, so dont be put off by an ignorant, who retired (or should) decades ago.
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Are you a cadet pilot?
Note: You can cross the entire mountain range on 3 engines.
Note: You can cross the entire mountain range on 3 engines.
'If' we lost one engine over the high ground I would then be considering the 2 Eng driftdown scenario to decide if I should carry on down that route ... As a Freighter we would be considerably heavier than a pax flight (typical 120T payload) and ourt 2 Eng driftdown would be well below the high ground around Urumqi ....
As a Captain I make it my business to think the 'what if' scenario ... and hope my first officers do the same.
I often check the 2 Eng driftdown say over Afganistan where we MSA's of 20,000ft are not uncommon .... but the lower terrian is obvious either side of track ... especially into northern Iran .. not so over the Urumqi routes, the terrian is >20,000ft over large areas either side of track ...
Thanks Capt Turbo and Topbunk for your replies.
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Yes, I hear you, I just haven't ever heard of a B744 multiple engine failure since the species came out of the shop in 1988. But I've heard of a B744 flying 10 hours on 3 motors from LAX to MAN...! So, my point is that I don't worry in advance, that I don't clutter my mind with improbabilities. I'm adequately familiar with the Tien Shan mountain range as I have traversed it beaucoup times in daylight hours and know where it's 24,000' peak is. And if ever I'm down on 2 engines, I will dabble with 2-eng driftdown profiles.
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GlueBall
You might refer to FAR 121.193 (c) regarding 4 engine operations. Consideration of two-engine failure and drift down is required. With heavy ZFWs, departing eastbound from the west coast this was always a planning consideration in the marginally powered C-5. With an engine failure, the smart four-engine pilot, ensures that the plan is correct by knowing the two-engine cruise ceiling and all the terrain and minimum instrument altitudes foe the remaining route, if the terrain cannot be cleared, a diversion is required.
GF
You might refer to FAR 121.193 (c) regarding 4 engine operations. Consideration of two-engine failure and drift down is required. With heavy ZFWs, departing eastbound from the west coast this was always a planning consideration in the marginally powered C-5. With an engine failure, the smart four-engine pilot, ensures that the plan is correct by knowing the two-engine cruise ceiling and all the terrain and minimum instrument altitudes foe the remaining route, if the terrain cannot be cleared, a diversion is required.
GF
Oh Glueball
Oh Glueball,
How happy I am to hear that they let you fly only boxes. How sad I am not knowing which outfit (and I use the word advisedly) allows you to fly their boxes so that I may inadvertently add my box to the ones in your charge.
I also wonder which cornflakes you eat so much of to allow you to exhange the coupons for the fourth stripe.
S
How happy I am to hear that they let you fly only boxes. How sad I am not knowing which outfit (and I use the word advisedly) allows you to fly their boxes so that I may inadvertently add my box to the ones in your charge.
I also wonder which cornflakes you eat so much of to allow you to exhange the coupons for the fourth stripe.
S
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It's ok folks, Glueball is a flying God.
Everything he says comes to pass. He can walk on water, never consider secondary issues, as they won't affect him.
We are all fools, we should all aspire to be like him, oh for his calmness and fearless approach, our training and all legislation is wrong, why were we all mislead. Shame on us!
I am humbled by his knowledge - shame on me......
Everything he says comes to pass. He can walk on water, never consider secondary issues, as they won't affect him.
We are all fools, we should all aspire to be like him, oh for his calmness and fearless approach, our training and all legislation is wrong, why were we all mislead. Shame on us!
I am humbled by his knowledge - shame on me......
Glueball
I now do fly twins over mountain ranges and I am aware of the plane's drift down level and routes away from high terrain( yes, the Tian Shan is one), just good airmanship. And a single-engine ceiling in the low thirties--GLEX!
GF
I now do fly twins over mountain ranges and I am aware of the plane's drift down level and routes away from high terrain( yes, the Tian Shan is one), just good airmanship. And a single-engine ceiling in the low thirties--GLEX!
GF
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. . . No flying godliness, just a good dose of practical reality and common sense...to counter B74F captain noblues' wind-up and obsession about 2-engine driftdown and escape routes in a 4-engine jet. Because to lose 2 engines in a 4-engine jet is a proven statistical probability near zero. It's not an argument, just a statement of fact. And we're not flying into any volcanic ash at Urumqi nor anywhere in the Tien Shan mountain range. After more than 10 years in the B74, I'm still waiting for an engine to go on vacation. 
I'd like to watch Glueball 'dabbling in 2 eng driftdown' AFTER he's lost 2 engines. I suspect that it's a bit late by then. Of course we should keep ourselves reasonably familiar with critical items in critical places. The MRA's won't move but you can improve your own situation by following the escape routes and (if necessary) dumping some gas to increase your level-off performance. Worthy of note that 'drifting down' can take a long time which can prove helpful when trying to clear very high terrain.
Come on Mr Glueball - get the books out - the great Aviation Gods are justing waiting for people like you.
Come on Mr Glueball - get the books out - the great Aviation Gods are justing waiting for people like you.
