STOL aircraft question.
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STOL aircraft question.
I am a retired helicopter pilot and am looking for some info about fixed-wing
Is there a fixed-wing aircraft in existence which could operate a VFR public transport scheduled service onto a 600 metre/1800+ft runway carrying more than twenty-five pax and bags and depart without refuelling for a short return leg, say 60 miles and then land on grass.
Thanks in advance
Boslandew
Is there a fixed-wing aircraft in existence which could operate a VFR public transport scheduled service onto a 600 metre/1800+ft runway carrying more than twenty-five pax and bags and depart without refuelling for a short return leg, say 60 miles and then land on grass.
Thanks in advance
Boslandew
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A Transall.
But do not expect the passengers to be happy.
Transall C-160 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The German version quotes start and landing distances:
Transall C-160 ? Wikipedia
But do not expect the passengers to be happy.
Transall C-160 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The German version quotes start and landing distances:
Transall C-160 ? Wikipedia
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I think only military transports can do this, take the Transall for example:
Transall C-160 ? Wikipedia (German, has take-off distance)
Transall C-160 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (English)
Transall C-160 ? Wikipedia (German, has take-off distance)
Transall C-160 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (English)
The problem you've got here is that you're jsut the wrong side of the part 23/part 25 crossover.
Part 25 aeroplanes are generally airliners - big, heavy, and very expensive: there's little incentive for a manufacturer to go to the massive part 25 certification costs for something only a little bigger than the part 23 limit.
STOL aeroplanes are pretty much entirely part 23 aircraft - which are limited to 19 passenger seats (+ 1 or 2 pilots). This basically means that the big STOL aeroplanes seat a maximum of 20 total.
But if you can limit to 20 total PoB (almost certainly 18 pax in any sensible configuration) then there are several aeroplanes available to you. The dHC-6 Twin Otter would be an obvious choice, but you could also look at the BN2A Mk.III Trislander. On the sort of short hops you're looking at, total payload shouldn't be a particular problem.
As Transaal said, there are military aeroplanes that will certainly do what you're describing - but not with civil certification.
G
Part 25 aeroplanes are generally airliners - big, heavy, and very expensive: there's little incentive for a manufacturer to go to the massive part 25 certification costs for something only a little bigger than the part 23 limit.
STOL aeroplanes are pretty much entirely part 23 aircraft - which are limited to 19 passenger seats (+ 1 or 2 pilots). This basically means that the big STOL aeroplanes seat a maximum of 20 total.
But if you can limit to 20 total PoB (almost certainly 18 pax in any sensible configuration) then there are several aeroplanes available to you. The dHC-6 Twin Otter would be an obvious choice, but you could also look at the BN2A Mk.III Trislander. On the sort of short hops you're looking at, total payload shouldn't be a particular problem.
As Transaal said, there are military aeroplanes that will certainly do what you're describing - but not with civil certification.
G
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Dash 7
The Dash 7 STOL could do this...it can take about 50 passengers and land within 600 m at ISA SL. No longer in production. About 51 still flying around (also as passenger planes)
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STOL
Gentlemen, many thanks for your assistance. Just out of interest I was wondering if there are any aircraft larger than the present Twin Otters that could land at St Mary's, Isles of Scilly, UK
Decurion
I had thought of the Dash 7. My copy of 'Janes' gives STOL take-off/landing distances of approximately 600 metres. Presumably a runway would need to be longer than this to operate public transport flights? Any idea how much longer?
Thanks in advance
Boslandew
Decurion
I had thought of the Dash 7. My copy of 'Janes' gives STOL take-off/landing distances of approximately 600 metres. Presumably a runway would need to be longer than this to operate public transport flights? Any idea how much longer?
Thanks in advance
Boslandew
You can forget both the C-130 and the Transall, on economic grounds as well as certification, etc., etc.
Brymon Airways operated Dash 7's out of the 2199'/677 Meter runway of Baltasound Airport, on the island of Unst. These operations persisted for about twenty years, to full Public Transport rules, hauling oil company employees who transferred to/from helicopters for the short lift to/from the North Sea platforms. Carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers during this period, to the best of my knowledge the Dash 7 never put a wheel off the UNT runway.
Although St. Mary's is slightly shorter than UNT, the commercial payload of the Dash 7 would certainly be more than the Twin Otter, so it would probably boil down to the sector length desired. A look into the Approved Dash 7 AFM would provide the answer for you.
Brymon Airways operated Dash 7's out of the 2199'/677 Meter runway of Baltasound Airport, on the island of Unst. These operations persisted for about twenty years, to full Public Transport rules, hauling oil company employees who transferred to/from helicopters for the short lift to/from the North Sea platforms. Carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers during this period, to the best of my knowledge the Dash 7 never put a wheel off the UNT runway.
Although St. Mary's is slightly shorter than UNT, the commercial payload of the Dash 7 would certainly be more than the Twin Otter, so it would probably boil down to the sector length desired. A look into the Approved Dash 7 AFM would provide the answer for you.
Boslandew:
You would go bankrupt trying to operate a Dash 7 on that route. Sure, the PLANE could do the job for you perfectly, but the maintenance costs for a four-engine aircraft of that size (not to mention the fuel costs) would kill the idea at the planning stage.
Best suggestion I can offer, if you need to carry more than 19 passengers, is to get TWO Twin Otters. No-one will ever complain about increased frequency of operation.
You would go bankrupt trying to operate a Dash 7 on that route. Sure, the PLANE could do the job for you perfectly, but the maintenance costs for a four-engine aircraft of that size (not to mention the fuel costs) would kill the idea at the planning stage.
Best suggestion I can offer, if you need to carry more than 19 passengers, is to get TWO Twin Otters. No-one will ever complain about increased frequency of operation.
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STOL
Gentlemen
Many thanks for all the information.
A little background. It has been suggested in the local paper that there are faster, cheaper fixed-wing alternatives to the S61 helicopter that currently operates the route carrying 25+ pax and bags. I was fairly sure that there wasn't a fixed wing aircraft that could offer more seats than the helicopter on public transport flights to St Mary's on a 600 metre runway. I believe there might be a further problem with a gradient of up to 6% although I note and read in wonder of operations into and out Courcheval. However, I have little knowledge of fixed-wing performance and PPrune seemed the best source of info.
It seems clear from your answers that the only contender would be the Dash 7.
Twochai and V1...oops make it clear that the Dash 7 could operate the service performance-wise but not profitably. Which is no doubt why it has never flown the route.
Ex-Grunt Nice bit of lateral thinking. I never considered the Osprey.
It would be an interesting sight watching Hercules and Transalls thundering in and out. I had considered the Dornier 228 but it offers 6-8 pax less than the S61.
I suspect that the S61 will continue to operate the route, soon to be from Lands End airport alongside the Twin Otters and Islanders, with perhaps a Westland Heli-liner as an aventual replacement.
Many thanks for your time and thoughts. PPrune at its best.
Boslandew
Many thanks for all the information.
A little background. It has been suggested in the local paper that there are faster, cheaper fixed-wing alternatives to the S61 helicopter that currently operates the route carrying 25+ pax and bags. I was fairly sure that there wasn't a fixed wing aircraft that could offer more seats than the helicopter on public transport flights to St Mary's on a 600 metre runway. I believe there might be a further problem with a gradient of up to 6% although I note and read in wonder of operations into and out Courcheval. However, I have little knowledge of fixed-wing performance and PPrune seemed the best source of info.
It seems clear from your answers that the only contender would be the Dash 7.
Twochai and V1...oops make it clear that the Dash 7 could operate the service performance-wise but not profitably. Which is no doubt why it has never flown the route.
Ex-Grunt Nice bit of lateral thinking. I never considered the Osprey.
It would be an interesting sight watching Hercules and Transalls thundering in and out. I had considered the Dornier 228 but it offers 6-8 pax less than the S61.
I suspect that the S61 will continue to operate the route, soon to be from Lands End airport alongside the Twin Otters and Islanders, with perhaps a Westland Heli-liner as an aventual replacement.
Many thanks for your time and thoughts. PPrune at its best.
Boslandew
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Hello Boslandew,
A friend of mine flew with the Dash7 on a regular basis to the altiport Courchevel in France.
As I remember the passenger capacity was limited to max. 20 for this operation. In the meantime his company has discontinued the operation with this aircraft.
A friend of mine flew with the Dash7 on a regular basis to the altiport Courchevel in France.
As I remember the passenger capacity was limited to max. 20 for this operation. In the meantime his company has discontinued the operation with this aircraft.
SATA (Azores airlines) have a single Dornier 228 in thier fleet specially for flights to the smallest Azorean Island, Corvo (pop 400). Corvo's runway is variously reported as 600 or 800m, and it has a drop into the ocean at each end. Some flights operate a short 5-minute hop to nearby Flores, but I think that there may also be flights to Horta, which is over 150 miles away.
To this layman, the 228 looks like an interesting proposition, given what SATA manages to do with it. Seats only 19, but it seems to be versatile and reliable.
Anyone ever flown to Corvo? I'd love to, but haven't yet managed it.
To this layman, the 228 looks like an interesting proposition, given what SATA manages to do with it. Seats only 19, but it seems to be versatile and reliable.
Anyone ever flown to Corvo? I'd love to, but haven't yet managed it.
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Phileas Fogg: are you calling the Twin Otter ugly?
Further to V1... Oops's suggestion. One Twin Otter, and get the crew to do a few more rotations during their duty day!
As you mention in one of your posts whilst there are aeroplanes that would cope with the distance you have the problem of what used to be known as Performance A for aircraft of over 5700kg on public transport AOC work which requires considerable safety margins to be applied in performance planning which makes the task impossible from a regulatory point of view. If the services were being operated under a private operation then the performance margins don't need to be applied.
V-22. Nice idea, but probably very expensive to run, and I don't know that it certified on the civilian register in Europe yet.
Probably best stick with what you've got until someone extends the runway, or get a Twin Otter on floats for the novelty factor!
Further to V1... Oops's suggestion. One Twin Otter, and get the crew to do a few more rotations during their duty day!
As you mention in one of your posts whilst there are aeroplanes that would cope with the distance you have the problem of what used to be known as Performance A for aircraft of over 5700kg on public transport AOC work which requires considerable safety margins to be applied in performance planning which makes the task impossible from a regulatory point of view. If the services were being operated under a private operation then the performance margins don't need to be applied.
V-22. Nice idea, but probably very expensive to run, and I don't know that it certified on the civilian register in Europe yet.
Probably best stick with what you've got until someone extends the runway, or get a Twin Otter on floats for the novelty factor!
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Could a Bristol Wayfarer have done it?
They used to use virtually nothing of NCL's runway when I was a kid spotter there.
They used to use virtually nothing of NCL's runway when I was a kid spotter there.