Prepressurization on take off
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: around
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fredgrav,
i don't know who told you that but what you wrote before (predepartues check taxi out phase period ecc ecc..) it does not apply to airbus 320 series at all..
don't pretend to extend your knowledge to the all the aircrafts..each one has its own way of operating..
rgrds,
minimumminimumm
i don't know who told you that but what you wrote before (predepartues check taxi out phase period ecc ecc..) it does not apply to airbus 320 series at all..
don't pretend to extend your knowledge to the all the aircrafts..each one has its own way of operating..
rgrds,
minimumminimumm
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Minimumminimum,
what should I be pretending ?! ... I don't know how every aircraft on earth manages its valves, but simply said that, and I'm kinda sure of it, during the pre-daparture checks and taxi-out on the bus, the outflow valves, the Pack inlet and outlet stay open or partially open, allowing ram air to go in. Just that ...
Best,
fred
what should I be pretending ?! ... I don't know how every aircraft on earth manages its valves, but simply said that, and I'm kinda sure of it, during the pre-daparture checks and taxi-out on the bus, the outflow valves, the Pack inlet and outlet stay open or partially open, allowing ram air to go in. Just that ...
Best,
fred
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
have a look again to your books. it seems you are a little bit confusing between packs ops and ram air ops
see my posts above, never mentioned Ram Air OPS but always talked of Ram Air. Ram air = a fluid moving freely around the a/c or entering in it. Be sure that if I DID NOT know what I'm talking about, I wouldn't have written in this thread ... then I can either be right or wrong but just thought that my explanation was the only one to be possible in trying to figure out how the bus gets pre-pressurized on takeoff.
p.s. mentioned a couple of time the RAM air inlet, but wrongly and inadvertently instead of Pack Inlet Scoop.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fredgrav
pre-pressurization (Packs OFF) is accomplished by using ram air and then keeping RAM air inlet and Outlet flap closed all troughtout the takeoff phase.
Originally Posted by fredgrav
RAM air enters the aircraft before takeoff
Originally Posted by fredgrav
Though the valves (and packs) have remained open while the pre-daperture checks and taxi-out phase, so that a pressure slightly higher than outside has built up inside the cabin: when the valves automatically close for takeoff (TO phase), this slighlty higher pressure remains trapped into the a/c, allowing the so called "cabin pre-pressurization"
Originally Posted by fredgrav
Be sure that if I DID NOT know what I'm talking about, I wouldn't have written in this thread
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No it does not. Unless you have opened the emergency ram air inlet in which case there will be no pressurisation.
you're right. Was so convinced as if pack inlet and outlet valves did actually allow ram air to freely enter, that finally wrote a nonsense.
But definitely don't take this as I did not really know what I was talking about, I simply made a mistake.
Bio,
thought back to what I wrote and just got to be in the wrong. Please excuse me!
Best,
fredgrav
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to operate 747 Classics for many years, all of which were 'packs-off' takeoffs...
I'm still trying to get around this 'pressure bump' you guys are talking about...
All 3 packs off until around 200', then 1 pack on, then 2nd pack on when stabilized in the climb, followed by the 3rd, again, after.....
Then one pack off during the cruise.
I don't know what all this 'pressure-bump' is about, it was never a problem, worked just fine, and was ultra-reliable...
EW73
I'm still trying to get around this 'pressure bump' you guys are talking about...
All 3 packs off until around 200', then 1 pack on, then 2nd pack on when stabilized in the climb, followed by the 3rd, again, after.....
Then one pack off during the cruise.
I don't know what all this 'pressure-bump' is about, it was never a problem, worked just fine, and was ultra-reliable...
EW73
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi EW73,
you're right. I don't know the 747CL, but as far as I know the 747-400 has a 1 PACK ON / 2 PACKS OFF TO ... though the conf. may change from plane to plane.
No doubt about it. I was talking about the "pressure surge" that might happen upon the selection of 2 or 3 packs at the same time; this thing has all to deal with comfort and is not supposed to be a problem for a large cabin like that of the 747. The less the cabin size, the faster it gets pressurized. Don't want to keep runnin' off-topic ... 
Best Regards,
fredgrav
you're right. I don't know the 747CL, but as far as I know the 747-400 has a 1 PACK ON / 2 PACKS OFF TO ... though the conf. may change from plane to plane.
I don't know what all this 'pressure-bump' is about, it was never a problem, worked just fine, and was ultra-reliable...
Best Regards,
fredgrav
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC,
there should be a misunderstanding in here, sir !
Initially I was talking of the RAM air that enters via the Pack Inlet Scoop, and finally admitted to be in the wrong, cause I actually was ... but:
I really never questioned that ! 
there should be a misunderstanding in here, sir !
Initially I was talking of the RAM air that enters via the Pack Inlet Scoop, and finally admitted to be in the wrong, cause I actually was ... but:
- and that is EXACTLY why we don't do that
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
EW, The pressure bump I am led to believe is that experienced when an aircraft rotates, changing the attitude and therefore the airflow around the OFV.
If the OFV is closed and fuse is pressurised the above cannot happen.
I dont have any experience of the 74 as above regarding selecting packs one at a time time to prevent a pressure surge.I think this maybe be semantics but a slightly different phenomena to a pressure bump eliminated by pre pressurising whilst on the ground.ie the 737 pre press to -387' from memory to prevent the rotation bump.
However, I know of one case where a 320 was having bleed trouble ( nothing new back then, late 80's early 90's) and the crew deselected both bleeds and reslected on.Blew out all the blow out panels but did surely get bleeds flowing
That was a surge!
fred, it is good place to learn.Ram air in and out puts cooler outside air across heat exchangers/precoolers to cool bleed air for use in air con / press. systems.
If the OFV is closed and fuse is pressurised the above cannot happen.
I dont have any experience of the 74 as above regarding selecting packs one at a time time to prevent a pressure surge.I think this maybe be semantics but a slightly different phenomena to a pressure bump eliminated by pre pressurising whilst on the ground.ie the 737 pre press to -387' from memory to prevent the rotation bump.
However, I know of one case where a 320 was having bleed trouble ( nothing new back then, late 80's early 90's) and the crew deselected both bleeds and reslected on.Blew out all the blow out panels but did surely get bleeds flowing
That was a surge!fred, it is good place to learn.Ram air in and out puts cooler outside air across heat exchangers/precoolers to cool bleed air for use in air con / press. systems.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Italy
Age: 36
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fred, it is good place to learn.Ram air in and out puts cooler outside air across heat exchangers/precoolers to cool bleed air for use in air con / press. systems.
you got it, there ain't any place more efficient than this to learn from others ...
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pressurisation Bumps
Notwithstanding some of the positively surreal posts on this thread, here's the explanation of pressurisation bumps...
Many/most simpler old-school pressurisation systems connect the squat switch into the pressurisation system - often as a direct connection to the outflow valves, independently of the controller. That very simply satisfies the requirement to dump cabin pressure when you land. But the inverse is also true, that during the takeoff roll, wheels on the ground, the outflow valves are held open. As soon as the aircraft lifts off the squat switch opens, and transfers control of the outflow valves to the pressurisation controller. This handover of control can mean that the outflow valves are quite quickly driven closed as the controller hunts for the right setting, causing a noticeable "bump" in the ears of the passengers, especially if the controller is not quite set up correctly.
To answer the 747 comment - the size of the bump depends on cabin size - the smaller the cabin, the bigger the bump.
There are two pretty basic solutions. One is to arrange that there is no significant inflow when the outflow valves take over - that's the "no packs" solution, and it works - but the bleed air must be introduced to the cabin carefully later. The second, which is more popular in modern designs, is to give control of the outflow valves to the pressurisation controller when you are still on the ground. The controller can drive the outflow valves towards the closed position to modestly pre-pressurise the cabin. It can do this without bumping because it KNOWS that you are on the ground and can therefore self-calibrate the delta pressure between ambient and target cabin pressure.
But it has nothing to do with attitude, ram air, or airflow.
Many/most simpler old-school pressurisation systems connect the squat switch into the pressurisation system - often as a direct connection to the outflow valves, independently of the controller. That very simply satisfies the requirement to dump cabin pressure when you land. But the inverse is also true, that during the takeoff roll, wheels on the ground, the outflow valves are held open. As soon as the aircraft lifts off the squat switch opens, and transfers control of the outflow valves to the pressurisation controller. This handover of control can mean that the outflow valves are quite quickly driven closed as the controller hunts for the right setting, causing a noticeable "bump" in the ears of the passengers, especially if the controller is not quite set up correctly.
To answer the 747 comment - the size of the bump depends on cabin size - the smaller the cabin, the bigger the bump.
There are two pretty basic solutions. One is to arrange that there is no significant inflow when the outflow valves take over - that's the "no packs" solution, and it works - but the bleed air must be introduced to the cabin carefully later. The second, which is more popular in modern designs, is to give control of the outflow valves to the pressurisation controller when you are still on the ground. The controller can drive the outflow valves towards the closed position to modestly pre-pressurise the cabin. It can do this without bumping because it KNOWS that you are on the ground and can therefore self-calibrate the delta pressure between ambient and target cabin pressure.
But it has nothing to do with attitude, ram air, or airflow.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
"But it has nothing to do with attitude, or airflow".Agree on ram air that is nonsense.
Well, I better get back to Mr Boeing and correct their 737 trainers on the other 2.
we do agree that pre pressurisation is used to alleviate the bump.
Well, I better get back to Mr Boeing and correct their 737 trainers on the other 2.
we do agree that pre pressurisation is used to alleviate the bump.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure of the airbus, 767/757 pre-pressuration can be easily seen by moving throttles to full and watching the outflow valve moving. One good reason to pull all circuit breakers when working near the valve - can move at anytime.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 71
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What you really need is a good old-fashioned Flight Engineer to put you pilot-type chaps (not all, but many) at rest with your perceptions of air conditioning and pressurisation theory.
Ram Air was mentioned... and that's where the initial mistake was made. Ram Air is used within the primary stages of 'Heat Exchange' within the Air Cycle Machines and nothing to do with air entering the cabin.
BOAC appears to be the only chap here to have a grasp of the situation. Over the years, the method in which the pressurisation of aircraft is achieved, hasn't changed that much. Yeah, more modern systems have 'tweaked' the theory in order to refine passenger comfort.
A modern system will start to close the outflow valve(s) during the takeoff roll, or, whenever the Pressure Controller has been selected to AUTO. This is in order that there will be a much smoother transition to pressurised flight when those tricky little squat switches handover full control the the Pressure Controller. The Pressure Controller will sense how many packs are ON/OFF, and, it will also know the position of the Outflow Valve(s) and that it modulate the Outflow Valve(s) with respect to the rate of change of cabin pressure.
Simples...
TCF
Ram Air was mentioned... and that's where the initial mistake was made. Ram Air is used within the primary stages of 'Heat Exchange' within the Air Cycle Machines and nothing to do with air entering the cabin.
BOAC appears to be the only chap here to have a grasp of the situation. Over the years, the method in which the pressurisation of aircraft is achieved, hasn't changed that much. Yeah, more modern systems have 'tweaked' the theory in order to refine passenger comfort.
A modern system will start to close the outflow valve(s) during the takeoff roll, or, whenever the Pressure Controller has been selected to AUTO. This is in order that there will be a much smoother transition to pressurised flight when those tricky little squat switches handover full control the the Pressure Controller. The Pressure Controller will sense how many packs are ON/OFF, and, it will also know the position of the Outflow Valve(s) and that it modulate the Outflow Valve(s) with respect to the rate of change of cabin pressure.
Simples...
TCF
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Field in Sight (post13) answered the original question exactly.
I agree with TCF. In addition the A320 series has a Ram Air System which will provide cabin ventilation - but not pressurisation.
Field in Sight (post13) answered the original question exactly.
I agree with TCF. In addition the A320 series has a Ram Air System which will provide cabin ventilation - but not pressurisation.