The danger of the F/O calling STOP before V1
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In BA the F/O only rejects for a limited number of clearly defined events, which are brief prior to take-off. These include engine failure, fire, blocked runway and loss of control (and the captain calling 'stop' whether intentional or not). For any other reason, such as burst tyre or smoke, only the captain can call 'stop'. The system seemed to work well, and I didn't see many problems on sim checks.
I also flew for an airline that didn't allow the F/O to reject and once again it seemed to work well. The CAA insisted that all F/O's carried out a reject on the simulator every three years just in case of incapacitation. Personally I don't think that this is enough and should be done either yearly or on every check.
Dave
I also flew for an airline that didn't allow the F/O to reject and once again it seemed to work well. The CAA insisted that all F/O's carried out a reject on the simulator every three years just in case of incapacitation. Personally I don't think that this is enough and should be done either yearly or on every check.
Dave
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You're right, I am not.
My opinion is only based on the tiny type I fly, so I'm curious!
My opinion is only based on the tiny type I fly, so I'm curious!
Outward opening doors on the airplane have a max wind speed of 45 knots, and a max wind speed once open of 60 knots. Opening at a higher speed in flight is initially going to impart a very strong rolling moment, and the door is mostly likely to separate. If it does, the results won't be pretty.
An opening cargo door is a bad thing, during the takeoff or in flight.
Most places in my experience say "We will stop for anything up to 80Kt".
Then they say that between 80Kt and V1 they will stop for a very short list of critical items.
Most people posting here seem to think that there is some timme for considering what is happening and making a considered decision as to stop or continue.
There isn't. That is why the list of items for which the aircraft will be stopped between 80Kt and V1 is very clear.
Then they say that between 80Kt and V1 they will stop for a very short list of critical items.
Most people posting here seem to think that there is some timme for considering what is happening and making a considered decision as to stop or continue.
There isn't. That is why the list of items for which the aircraft will be stopped between 80Kt and V1 is very clear.
Let's think about the following - The Captain is pilot flying anbd at V1-10 the FO shouts "Engine" or perhaps "Engine problem" or perhaps "High EGT".
Does it really matter what they shout? Who is going to stop lookoing outside to check the engine indications?
Does it really matter what they shout? Who is going to stop lookoing outside to check the engine indications?
I'm assuming most of the contributers here fly for outfits with very junior F/O's. The F/O's in the company I work for average about 8000 hrs with many 1000's on heavy jets. If these guys are incapable of making such a simple judgment as when to reject then they should never get there commands anyway.
Train your crews properly people. Allowing a PROFESSIONAL F/O to call the STOP is not reliquishing your command. On a long haul flight the Capt spends a 1/3 of it sleeping in the bunk whilst trusting his Snr F/O to make sound decisions in the event of ANY emergency.
On a long haul flight, our captains spend the flight at the controls. In an augmented crew, a second captain is available and a second flight engineer. In a heavy crew, a second first officer is available, second captain, and second flight engineer. Ideally in that case, each crewmember will spend about half their time in rest...but at no time do we have a "senior FO" in charge of the airplane.
Whether the FO makes a rejected takeoff or not is NOT a matter of personal decision for the captain at our company. By standardization, the captain will always make the rejected takeoff. There is no provision for the FO making the rejected takeoff. This is NOT an issue of training, professionalism, or anything but a company set standard. It is NOT a matter of trust. It is NOT a matter of experience or background. A 5,000 hour FO isn't authorized to reject, and neither is a 20,000 hour FO...and we've got a number of them.
One shouldn't assume. The assumption that policy is driven by mistrust or an egoistic captain is misplaced, and in error.
You're welcome to come re-educate the training department, of course.
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Recent study on RTO accidents
See for a recent study on the Rejected Takeoff topic:
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1326.pdf
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1326.pdf
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Sn3..
So on your 3 man long haul flight ..does the capt never go back for a 'comfort break' cup of tea, stretch legs,nap or heaven forbid smoke or whatever ?
assuming that most will do ....then your trusty f/o (and f/e) IS the one making decisions about weather,routing,levels ,emergencies etc etc.
tad hard to initiate an emergency decent with ur pants around your ankles?
So on your 3 man long haul flight ..does the capt never go back for a 'comfort break' cup of tea, stretch legs,nap or heaven forbid smoke or whatever ?
assuming that most will do ....then your trusty f/o (and f/e) IS the one making decisions about weather,routing,levels ,emergencies etc etc.
tad hard to initiate an emergency decent with ur pants around your ankles?
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After having followed the thread, the obvious answer to our problem is. . .
CA is PM.
FO is PF.
Every takeoff.
CAs observe and use their abort authority should his/her/its experience deem it necessary.
Nice and safe and logical. I can almost hear the POMs/FOMs being rewritten now. Expect the revision in your mailbox on Monday.
CA is PM.
FO is PF.
Every takeoff.
CAs observe and use their abort authority should his/her/its experience deem it necessary.
Nice and safe and logical. I can almost hear the POMs/FOMs being rewritten now. Expect the revision in your mailbox on Monday.
Nice conclusion ImbracableCrunk. This will greatly improve the safety during all takeoffs! Can't wait for the revision
Last edited by reivilo; 22nd Sep 2010 at 22:04. Reason: added: ';)' for better understanding of my post for some of us that live in 'The No Trangression Zone'
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SNS3Guppy, it is indeed common in a lot of airlines that an augmented crew is made up of a captain, a senior FO or cruise relief captain and a normal FO. PIC in this case is the captain for the whole flight, even if he is resting in the bunk. The SFO in that case has some additional training but not full command training.
As far as i know that kind of operation is currently under review by the EASA and other agencies in the aftermath of AF447 to assure that allways a fully trained captain is at the controls.
But that is thoroughly off topic here.
As far as i know that kind of operation is currently under review by the EASA and other agencies in the aftermath of AF447 to assure that allways a fully trained captain is at the controls.
But that is thoroughly off topic here.
Can't wait for the revision?...I think in certain airlines the revision comes when you're captain ...otherwise...they're Nah Ganna Duit...
What the heck..thread creep
YouTube - Gene Krupa sing sing sing
What the heck..thread creep
YouTube - Gene Krupa sing sing sing
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 22nd Sep 2010 at 20:51.
Can't wait for the revision?...I think in certain airlines the revision comes when you're captain ...otherwise...they're Nah Ganna Duit...
But on a more serious note, when I think about it: Why not let the captain monitor during all take-offs? If he, apparantly, is the only one capable of deciding to go or reject, he should be given the most time and information that is available to make that decision. And he would have that if he is PM during every t/o...
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SNS3Guppy, it is indeed common in a lot of airlines that an augmented crew is made up of a captain, a senior FO or cruise relief captain and a normal FO. PIC in this case is the captain for the whole flight, even if he is resting in the bunk. The SFO in that case has some additional training but not full command training.
An augmented "heavy" crew for us involves two captains, an FO, and two FE's. A double crew involves two captains, two FO's, and two FE's. In either case, a captain always occupies the left seat.
When we operate 'heavy crew' (Egypt triangles from EU), It's 1 Capt, 1 FO and 1 SFO, who will occupy the LH seat when the captain is resting in the back. The SFO has received 'cruise relief' training and should be fully capable of making decisions and executing procedures like an emergency descent in case of decompression, or immediate diversion in case of medical. In other cases where the 'decision area' is more grey, the captain will be called back to the cockpit to make the decision. IMHO I actually don't see any problem in this using a SFO as cruise relief 'captain'.
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Why don't just adhere to the manufacturer? Airplane manufacturer of the types that I fly says: "The captain has the sole responsibility for the decision to reject the takeoff. If the decision is to reject the takeoff, the captain must clearly announce 'REJECT', immediately start the rejected takeoff maneuver, and assume control of the airplane". Doesn't mention the F/O calling out to reject. He or she would reject only following a pilot incapacitation, IE 80 knots call....
Forgot to add, by following the manufacturer recommendations, your @ss and the airline has been covered in the event of a mishap....
But then again, what do I know....
Forgot to add, by following the manufacturer recommendations, your @ss and the airline has been covered in the event of a mishap....
But then again, what do I know....
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If he, apparantly, is the only one capable of deciding to go or reject, he should be given the most time and information that is available to make that decision.
The first officer may be a first class writer, too...but that doesn't mean he or she will be authoring a novel on this leg. You see the point?
