Concorde question

[M2dude]

dixi188
This incident could well have been G-BOAD #2 engine then; this one swallowed an intake ramp brake assembly. Details of this incident itself can be found in the links that I posted regarding 'When Intakes Go Wrong'

Regards
Dude .

[Nick Thomas]

As a Chartered Architect I have always been interested in how people visualise things. Now what has this to do with Concorde? Well when ever I think of her I always have a mental picture of her about to land. Am looking down the runway and Concorde is pitched up at about 11 degrees with the nose and visor down and approx 50 feet above the runway. For me this view of Concorde is particulary powerful as she looks like a bird of prey about to swoop down and kill. The undercarriage reminds me of the birds talons about to make contact with the poor unsuspecting animal. I also feel that this image clearly shows her immense power and also that this is an airliner like no other. I know that many cartoonist have used this image of Concorde and I can understand why.

So my question to all you Concorde admirers is do you have a special Concorde image and if so would you be kind enough to share it with us?

Regards
Nick

[ChristiaanJ]

Originally Posted by Nick Thomas

So my question to all you Concorde admirers is do you have a special Concorde image and if so would you be kind enough to share it with us?

I know exactly what you're saying, Nick...

And yes, Concorde evokes images like no other aircraft really does.

Funnily enough, to me the image you describe always evokes something totally different... although it does depend on the exact angle it's taken from.
Seen from exactly the right angle, she has this slight 'smile' on her face, saying "did it again, people... home soon ! ".


Otherwise, oh yes, I have two images.... both sad.

One is the air-to-air video of the Jubilee flypast with the Red Arrows (I don't have the link at hand), when she pulls up and away, saying goodbye.
For some reson, I have never been able to watch that one without a huge lump in my throat.

The other one is this one....



Last time ever.... and somehow one hoped an instant she would disappear from view, and return forever to the sky where she belonged.

And why should I now be furiously rubbing my eyes?
But maybe that answers your question, too....

Christian

[Nick Thomas]

Thanks Christian for posting such a bittersweet photo. I think that Concorde's lowered nose can have all sorts of visual meanings. To me in your photo it gives the impression of sadness almost as if she knows that it's the last landing! Maybe am sounding like Private Eyes Pseuds Corner.
I also thought it would be good to share such good memories on here; especially as some of her Prune detractors are having such fun over on their rumour thread.
Regards
Nick

[ITman]

What a wonderful informative and factual thread, I have once again started to read the book "Concorde new shape in the sky by Kenneth Owen" which I have had tucked away for years. This thread and the above book really highlight the complexity of this magnificent aircraft.

[ChristiaanJ]

Hi Nick,

A more cheerful image !



CJ

[speedbirdconcorde]

"I also thought it would be good to share such good memories on here; especially as some of her Prune detractors are having such fun over on their rumour thread."

Indeed Nick !

[M2dude]

Nick Thomas

So my question to all you Concorde admirers is do you have a special Concorde image and if so would you be kind enough to share it with us?

Jeepers Nick, I must have about a million, but I'd like to share a few here. (Some of them I have prattled on about before in this thread, so I apologise for any repetitions).I suppose my very FIRST Concorde image would have to be in Swindon in 1970, when I was this young RAF 'erk' at nearby RAF Lyneham; I heard this loud roar in the sky over what is now Debenhams, and looked up and saw for the very first time Concorde 002, along with her attendant Canberra chase plane.
My next memorable image was at Fairford in the summer 1974. (No longer a young RAF erk, but a still fairly young lad now working for BAC). I'd seen quite a few spectacular take-offs in my short time at BAC, but A/C 101 (G-AXDN) was being flown by a French DGAC pilot (I forget the gentleman's name I'm afraid) and did the most amazing of take-offs. It was the clearest of blue summer skies, and this guy rotated 101 and just climbed steeply into the Gloucestershire sky, and climbed and climbed until she was virtually out of view; truly memorable.
Another image that I will never forget is the view of Concorde taking off from JFK RW31L, viewed from the right side of the runway sat in a truck (I did this dozens of times and never tired of watching the spectacle). It always amazed me how ANY airliner could turn and climb that amazing fashion, and would try and keep her in view as she did an almost complete circuit around JFK. (But I found the view from the aircraft, when seated in the supernumerary seat just behind the captain even more amazing. You'd looked out of the rear L/H window and see nothing but the water of Jamaica Bay going by, very fast and VERY close).
Another GREAT image was in 1995; on a special test flight on-board G-BOAD out of LHR. I was sat on the flight deck with the three guys (just us four on the whole aeroplane) and we were positioned just aft and to the left of the BA189 Concorde service to IAD. We started the supersonic acceleration together, but as we peeled off south for our extensive test flight, the BA189 (can't remember for the life of me the registration) just seemed to streak ahead just like the Starship Enterprise, and was out of sight completely quite soon after that.
And I shall never forget the very sad view of the last ever Concorde take-off, watching from the side of Heathrow RW 27R in November 2003. OAF took off with all her usual grace, but symbolically just disappeared into the overcast, dark and gloomy sky. My own final personal image after 33 years of watching Concorde is that the aviation world, just like that November sky, is a far gloomier place without her.

Best regards
Dude

[DavvaP]

In you'll indulge me in another question that's been on my mind recently! Watched & read various things about the noise monitoring on Concorde's flight out of JFK in order for her to be able to fly in & out at the start of her service life.

Obviously a very inventive solution was practiced and executed which resulted in the noise monitors registering no problem whatsoever - indeed, people wondering why on earth no other aircraft doing the same procedure.

However, my question is this - What if she hadn't done this procedure? Would she have been too loud for the noise monitors? Was it actually necessary to perform the procedure? Politically it was a great idea, and no possibility of failure could be allowed at the time. But was she actually too loud in reality for the JFK noise monitors?

- Davva

[EXWOK]

Short answer: Yes. The procedures were necessary.

Even using them, it didn't take much to generate a noise fine (e.g. on a warm day, departing 31L from intersection KK because the full length wasn't available).

We couldn't climb ahead to 500ft like the blunties do because Concorde would be much further along the runway owing to higher take off speeds and a lower initial climb rate until you'd got above 250kts. We'd then be flying the turn at 250kts rather than the 160kts ish of a blunty so you have a much bigger radius of turn.

The solution was quite inventive and did the job well, taking advantage of Concorde's excellent handing qualities. And it was most enjoyable to fly, to boot.

I flew back from JFK last week and it just ain't the same.

[Nick Thomas]

CJ I love the cartoon. Dude I agree with you about the sight of Concorde taking of on 31L at JFK. Unfortunatly I have only seen it on the ITTV DVD but I would think that seeing it live must have been amazing.
Regards
Nick

[ChristiaanJ]

DavvaP, Nick, and the others,
If you haven't got it already, try and get a copy of Brian Calvert's "Flying Concorde", which has the story of those first landings and take-offs in New York in some considerable detail.

CJ

[M2dude]

Christian, this is a wonderful book by the late Brian Calvert, in that although he goes into quite a few of the more intriguing Concorde technicalities, he does so in a manner that is easily understandable, even by me , and gives a wonderful insight into what it was really like to fly this amazing aeroplane. I had the pleasure of working with Brian on a 1994 BBC2 Concorde documentary, my brother had the shock of his life while on holiday in Mauritius the same year, when he picked up a copy of The Times only to see Brian and I 'posing' together in a publicity photo for the programme.
The other two Concorde books that I would personally recommend are 'New Shape in the Sky', by Ken Owen and 'Supersonic Secrets' by Rob and Edwin Lewis. These two books, one old and one quite new, are absolute Concorde classics in my very humble opinion.

Best Regards
Dude

[ChristiaanJ]

In case anybody is interested, I just started off a separate thread
Concorde Books.
Probably too late for Christmas, but maybe useful just the same.

CJ

[M2dude]

Nick Thomas

Dude I agree with you about the sight of Concorde taking of on 31L at JFK. Unfortunatly I have only seen it on the ITTV DVD but I would think that seeing it live must have been amazing.

It really was totally amazing Nick, both when viewed from the ground and ESPECIALLY from the 'jump seat'. (We are talking pre-9/11 here of course). The problem was, the likes of my friend EXWOK made it look far too easy at first sight, but when you looked at the event more closely you realised that it was really a combination of a superbly manoeuvrable aeroplane and some superb, highly co-ordinated and disciplined flying by the three guys up front. (After experiencing my very first '31L' in the early 90s, after the turns and throttling were complete I remember saying to the captain 'can we do that again Chris, CAN we? ).
It used to be quite interesting at JFK, comparing the take-offs of Concorde and the 'blunties', as EXWOK affectionately refers to the subsonics. You always asked yourself 'if Concorde can do that why can't the rest? But again, as EXWOK said, 'it's just not the same'.

Best Regards
Dude

[Bellerophon]

JFK 31L, Kennedy 9 Departure, Canarsie transition, Concorde climb


Speedbird 2, cleared take-off 31L.

You call 3-2-1 Now, start your stopwatch, pre-set to countdown from 58 seconds, and slam the throttles fully forward till they hit the stops. Four RR Olympus engines start to spool up to full power and four reheats kick in, together producing 156,000 lbs of thrust, but at a total fuel flow of 27,000 US gallons per hour. A touch of left rudder initially to keep straight, as the #4 engine limiter is limiting the engine to 88% until 60 kts when it will release it to full power. The F/O calls Airspeed building, 100 kts, V1, and then, at 195 kts, Rotate. You smoothly rotate the aircraft, lift-off occurs at around 10° and 215 kts. You hear a call of V2 but you keep rotating to 13.5° and then hold that attitude, letting the aircraft accelerate.

The F/O calls Positive Climb and you call for the Gear Up. On passing 20 feet radio height, and having checked the aircraft attitude, airspeed and rate of climb are all satisfactory, the F/O calls Turn and you slowly and smoothly roll on 25° left bank to commence the turn out over Jamaica bay. Some knowledgeable passengers will have requested window seats on the left side of the aircraft at check-in, and are now being rewarded with a very close look at the waters of Jamaica Bay going by very fast! As you accelerate through 240 kts, the F/O calls 240 and you pitch up to 19° to maintain 250 kts and keep the left turn going to pass East of CRI.

54 seconds from the start of the take off roll you hear the F/O counting down 3-2-1 Noise whereupon the F/E cancel the re-heats and simultaneously throttles back to noise abatement power, around 96% as you pitch the nose down to 12° to maintain 250 kts. It is less than a minute from start of roll and already 435 US gallons of fuel have been used.


Speedbird 2, contact departure, so long.

Turning through heading 235°M, the F/E quickly re-applies full dry power as you pitch up to 17° to maintain 250 kts, but simultaneously reduce the left bank to 7.5°, in order to increase both the radius of turn (to stay on the optimum noise abatement track) and the rate of climb (less bank, higher RoC).

On climbing through 2,500 ft you increase the bank angle back to 25° left bank and as you approach the 253° radial JFK, you hear 3-2-1 Noise from the F/O for the second time. The F/E actions the second noise-abatement power cut back, you pitch down to 12° and, if not in cloud, sneak a quick peek out of your left hand window, looking for the car park by the Marine Parkway bridge, as you would ideally like to pass right over the car park, if possible, as we tip-toe quietly across the Rockaway Beaches, in order to minimise the noise impact on the residents.

Keep the left turn going and intercept the 176° radial outbound from CRI, and at 5 miles DME from CRI, call for the F/E to slowly re-apply full climb power as you pitch up to maintain 250 kts. We are still in US territorial airspace, below 10,000 ft, and subject to statutory speed control.


Speedbird 2, present position direct to SHIPP, climb FL230, no speed control.

The F/O selects direct SHIPP in the INS and tells you that she has selected that information into your Flight Director. Having checked that the gear lever is at neutral, you call for the Nose Up, and then the Visor Up. Flight deck noise levels drop dramatically as the Visor locks up. Now more than 12 miles away from the coast, we are clear of US speed control requirements so lower the attitude to 9°, accelerate to VMO, currently 400 kts, and ask for the After Take Off Checks.


Speedbird 2, present position direct to LINND, climb in the block FL550-600, accelerate Mach 2.0

Call for the Climb Checklist at Mach 0.7, which will trigger the F/E to start pumping fuel rearwards to move the CG aft, then when he's done that, straight into the Transonic Checklist. Maintain 400 kts IAS, and around 24,500 ft, at M0.93, ask for the re-heats back on, in pairs, and raise the nose by 3° to maintain 400 kts as they kick in.

Precise, smooth flying is required through the high drag transonic region, as the mach meter creeps up towards Mach 1. A sudden flicker on the VSI and Altimeter confirms that the shock wave has just passed over the static ports, and the aircraft is now supersonic. A quick glance at the elapsed time indicator shows that you’ve been hand flying for just over 9 minutes since the start of the take off roll.

Another fun start to a day in the office, and to think we got paid for doing it!


Best Regards

Bellerophon

[ChristiaanJ]

Thanks, Bellerophon !

That just went into my 'archive'.

Maybe it should be printed out, plastified, and used as a briefing sheet for the Brooklands simulator, where the JFK 31L take-off is still one of the favourites !

CJ

[Nick Thomas]

Thanks Dude and Bellerphon for such graphic descriptions of JFK 31L take off. Nearest I came to experiencing anything like that was landing at Kai Tak in the 80's!
Out of interest Bellerphon was there a supersonic acceleration point for JFK departures or as you were soon over the ocean, was it a case of it happened when it happened?
Regards
Nick
P.S Thanks Christiaan for your Concorde book thread. I am hoping that Santa brings me the Haynes manual!

[shakesc]

Great thread, its taken some time to read through
The anecdotes from landlady , m2dude and the others are great

My main recollections are after coming back from Detroit to LHR, sitting on the National Express bus at dusk as Concorde took off from the runway parallel to the road, the whole bus shaking and watching the 4 engines glowing blue as she took off - brilliant. Sadly after that the next experience was passing 4 of them parked up after the AF disaster

As an Engineer I love things that push the envelope and limits - Concorde is one of those
Having just returned from Chicago on a 767, as capable as it is, I know what I would prefer to be riding in

I sadly doubt that we will see these flying again but I really would like to see effort in the next supersonic airliner rather than A380's and the like

[Mike-Bracknell]

Evening Chris Thought I recognised the username.