Standard Phraseology for Weather Deviation
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Your only obligation is to inform controller of the fact you are going to deviate,
The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation. By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.
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I hear a lot of swaggering on here. I also hear a lot of thoughts from people with experience in only one part of the world.
Going from FIR to FIR and accent to accent makes a pilot appreciate standard phraseology. I'm glad someone is asking this question.
How about deviations in places like China? Or involving China? I was going in the area between Tapei, Fukuoka heading towards a monster CB. I asked the CA if he thought we could request a west deviation (into China's airspace) and he looked at me like I had four heads. Is deviation in that part of the world that much harder than in the US?
Going from FIR to FIR and accent to accent makes a pilot appreciate standard phraseology. I'm glad someone is asking this question.
How about deviations in places like China? Or involving China? I was going in the area between Tapei, Fukuoka heading towards a monster CB. I asked the CA if he thought we could request a west deviation (into China's airspace) and he looked at me like I had four heads. Is deviation in that part of the world that much harder than in the US?
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation. By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.
If you need a deviation, as several level headed posters have said, let us know as soon as you can, and let us know what you want to do. 100% of ATC will try to help you out.
If there's a reason we can't approve it, such as 5 other aircraft have already gone in to that clear bit of sky, we can let you know and give you some other options. If you still want to go there, we can give the separation responsibility to you and your TCAS. Our game ends ... yours just begins
The lawyers will win again.
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The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation
I hope I'm never your passenger!
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I had an situation a couple of days ago. One inbound and one outbound. Both in climb/decent and radar headings to ensure proper separation.
About 10nm prior to the meeting point the inbound told me:
"Approach, AirlineXXX we are turning left heading 280 to avoid". That would be exactly on the outbound's track. There was at the time about 3000' between them.
The STCA immediately went off, and I replied: "NEGATIVE, opposite traffic 2500' below climbing through your level! Right turn to avoid is approved"
He returned to his original track and didn't say anything for a while. After a while he complained about having to fly through a CB giving him moderate turbulence.
The moral:
Tell us about the weather as early as you can. I will shake a h*** of a lot more hitting another aircraft.
About 10nm prior to the meeting point the inbound told me:
"Approach, AirlineXXX we are turning left heading 280 to avoid". That would be exactly on the outbound's track. There was at the time about 3000' between them.
The STCA immediately went off, and I replied: "NEGATIVE, opposite traffic 2500' below climbing through your level! Right turn to avoid is approved"
He returned to his original track and didn't say anything for a while. After a while he complained about having to fly through a CB giving him moderate turbulence.
The moral:
Tell us about the weather as early as you can. I will shake a h*** of a lot more hitting another aircraft.
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I asked the CA if he thought we could request a west deviation (into China's airspace) and he looked at me like I had four heads. Is deviation in that part of the world that much harder than in the US?
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Ah, the wonders of open forums! As crj705 pointed out, he asked a simple, direct question, and waited a goodly while until WX-T answered it.
There are semantic subtleties in the ICAO suggested phraseology which might be missed without careful reading.
Let's assume a non-radar environment. You, as pilot, require a deviation but you can only request clearance for it, for clearance is not yours to determine or assure. The response may be "unable", if someone has already booked the airspace. Which is presumably why ICAO suggest you assert priority handling with a PAN declaration.
PBL
There are semantic subtleties in the ICAO suggested phraseology which might be missed without careful reading.
Let's assume a non-radar environment. You, as pilot, require a deviation but you can only request clearance for it, for clearance is not yours to determine or assure. The response may be "unable", if someone has already booked the airspace. Which is presumably why ICAO suggest you assert priority handling with a PAN declaration.
PBL
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<<And when you have the mid air ... let's hope your family can pay the legal bills.>>
Well said. There are a few interesting Type A cases on here, with whom I pray to God I never, EVER have to fly.
In 31 years working in a busy TMA where bad weather is a regular occurrence I never once refused a pilot a weather deviation, although I often suggested an alternative to what was asked for. I only recall a handful who, irresponsibly, turned without saying anything. Some of the guys on here ought to spend an hour watching a busy radar sector in bad weather. A pilot friend of mine did.... and he came away very visibly shaken.
Every professional controller knows who is in command of an aircraft - many controllers are pilots too - but in appalling conditions the controller has to juggle weather avoidance with aircraft avoidance so please keep that in mind.
Well said. There are a few interesting Type A cases on here, with whom I pray to God I never, EVER have to fly.
In 31 years working in a busy TMA where bad weather is a regular occurrence I never once refused a pilot a weather deviation, although I often suggested an alternative to what was asked for. I only recall a handful who, irresponsibly, turned without saying anything. Some of the guys on here ought to spend an hour watching a busy radar sector in bad weather. A pilot friend of mine did.... and he came away very visibly shaken.
Every professional controller knows who is in command of an aircraft - many controllers are pilots too - but in appalling conditions the controller has to juggle weather avoidance with aircraft avoidance so please keep that in mind.
Quite a bit of "monkey see, monkey do" with pilots as well. The other day I refused a particular runway approach in Zurich, due weather, and was amused and the sudden flurry of voices asking for the same re-clearance I received!
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It baffles me how completely oblivious a few individuals in this forum are to the difference between excersing the rights of PIC, and normal operations:
The whole "I can do whatever the hell i want because it's my aircraft" attitude sickens me. Yes; in the event of an emergency it is the commanders obligation and right to do whatever he can to ensure the safe and successful outcome of the flight. This does not mean you can do as you please, all the time, when it is completely unwarranted.
Since when in Gods name do you, as a responsible individual, adress the situation so late? Did that big CB just all of a sudden pop out of nothing, leaving you only one option? Surely, don't allow yourself and your passengers to get killed, but how the hell did you paint yourself so far into that corner in the first place?
Such knee-jerk reactions can cause safety hazards for not only you, but for other aircraft. By adressing the problem at an early stage, where many different solutions may provide successful outcomes, you can work with those around you, to find the best solution for all.
Well, since the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, I would challenge that statement. When you're doing something that no-one expects you to (remember, most ATC units don't see the weather you see, and there are still places in the world with no radar), then by all means, do tell the rest of us. I agree that communication is secondary to flying the airplane/avoiding mountans/not getting killed, it is still vital.
I probably shouldn't let that statement get the best of me, but get of your god damn horse. It's not about that. It's not even close to being about that. It's about making it work for everyone, under the assumption that all hell didn't break loose all of a sudden, with no forewarning. ATC and most others in here know the deal.
So... sorry for the rant. I'll probably be shot down by a lot of you, but hopefully some of you will understand my frustration. Hat, coat, door.
The whole "I can do whatever the hell i want because it's my aircraft" attitude sickens me. Yes; in the event of an emergency it is the commanders obligation and right to do whatever he can to ensure the safe and successful outcome of the flight. This does not mean you can do as you please, all the time, when it is completely unwarranted.
Since when in Gods name do you "request" a deviation which if not done will take the bloody wings of?
Such knee-jerk reactions can cause safety hazards for not only you, but for other aircraft. By adressing the problem at an early stage, where many different solutions may provide successful outcomes, you can work with those around you, to find the best solution for all.
The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation.
By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.
So... sorry for the rant. I'll probably be shot down by a lot of you, but hopefully some of you will understand my frustration. Hat, coat, door.
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Bfisk, completely got your back on this. It is not a power struggle about who's gonna fly the a/c, it's pilot's job and I'm glad he/she can do it. However, it's my personal responsibility to keep 'em puppies apart and get 'em out of my space safely and expeditiously. Pilots who irresponsibly just crank left/right with no notice should really come to our TRACON and see what it looks like on the radar- we're covered in planes, and it's not same person who talks to all of them which is the trickiest part- when my arrivals deviate towards the departures the guy across the room is working, there's no time for coordination... Having said that, you bet your @$$ I'll do my best to get you around CB- generally, after two a/c asked for deviation around the same place, I'd drag the traffic management unit and my sup to work up the alternative route
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Bfisk, At NO TIME did I mention or indicate anything about "Leaving it too late", Please do not distort my posts to make your own points, The fact remains that if you try flying inside a large Cauliflower the wings might just come of, even more likely in a BE20 if you dont have the spar strap mod compleated, {Is it done on yours? We had all our aircraft done, even when not an AD as we flew in a low level/ high cycle regime} In fact we found cracks in one of our older models so bad we grounded it.
