Really close shaves - your personal experiences
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Australia
Really close shaves - your personal experiences
Whenever there is a serious aircraft accident we usually read about it on Pprune. Two years can elapse before the official accident report is published and in the meantime there will be be healthy debate by retired arm-chair pilots like myself and others genuinely wanting to learn from past accidents. Occasionally name-calling spoils a debate while it not uncommon to read accident reports that are muted to protect ethnic sensibilities.
There are significant flight safety lessons of interest to pilots who bother to trawl through Pprune forums. But someone still has to go to the trouble of putting this info on Pprune and not just the same contributors whose user names dominate flight safety discussions. Mea Culpa.
Most experienced pilots will have had at least one almighty fright in their flying career - yet understandably are reluctant to put pen to Pprune lest they be labelled with the dreaded accusation of being a "line-shooter". Lessons learned by these experienced pilots are thus often lost to the rest of us and especially to the younger generation of pilots brought up from CPL standard directly into fly-by-wire glass cockpit aircraft. That is a pity since they miss out on what could be vital flight safety information. The excellent reliability of modern airliners mean that rarely do events turn nasty on the pilot. But if something does go seriously wrong in a few seconds, the crew may be caught completely off guard.
For this reason, I thought that experienced Ppruners could do an awful lot of good by sharing with the younger generation of pilots a brief account of their one or more seriously close shaves. Cold hard facts where possible. When this thread eventually dies away as things do on Pprune, then what you have contributed may have helped prevent a similar close call. I'll start it off - and please remember it is not a line-shoot and maybe not that dramatic - but it sure frightened me for a couple of seconds:
In 1978, Agana US Navy airbase at Guam in the Marianna Islands of the SW Pacific, shared the facility with civilian operators. There are two parallel runways 6R and 6L. An ILS is on 6L and the runway is over 9000 ft long. To depart 6L, aircraft back track 6R full length and hold at ninety degrees to the final approach path on the taxiway joining 6R and 6L. From recall, the horizontal distance between the threshold of both runways is around 150 yards. It was common practice for traffic using the 6L ILS to side-step right to land 6R if weather permitted. This gave more efficient utilisation between military and civil traffic.
We were flying a B737-200 from Manila to Guam and cleared via the 6L ILS to side step right for 6R when visual. Cloud base around 1000 ft and dark night - wind calm. ATC cleared a PANAM aircraft to hold between 6L and 6R and be ready for immediate departure 6L once we had called side-stepping. After we became visual and turned slightly right away from the ILS in order to line up for 6R, ATC cleared PANAM for line up and immediate take off 6L.
There was no VASIS for 6R and once we were outside the ILS localiser the glide slope was obviously not usable. We were aware of a flashing beacon of the PANAM aircraft but because of lack of lighting could not determine if the aircraft was still holding on the taxiway, or in the process of lining up on 6L
Our approach was stabilised by 500 ft agl at Vref plus 5 and guess work for on slope. In fact we passed over the threshold of 6R about 80 feet. As 6R was 8000 ft there was no problem with landing length. At that point the situation changed dramatically.
Without any warning it felt as though the 737 simply fell out of the sky and the F/O sang out out "Bug minus 20". That was Vref minus 20. We experienced marked wing drops in both directions. I fire-walled the thrust levers and pulled back on the control wheel towards 15-18 degrees body angle up. Just as the aircraft appeared to hit the runway at high sink, the thrust cut in and we headed up and soon after we were back in cloud still at full thrust.
We were then radar vectored for another ILS with an uneventful landing; this time on 6L. Investigation revealed that the PANAM 747 was still on the taxiway a minute or so after being cleared for immediate take off 6L but delayed lining up. The aircraft had then opened up to break-away power on the taxiway just as we passed behind him at 80 feet. His jet blast caught us causing momentary loss of control. Because of night conditions we had been unaware of his exact position and thus never noticed the tail of the 747 pointing right at us as we passed close behind.
Lesson learned? Jet blast can cause a close shave just as much as windshear.
............................................................ ........................
There are significant flight safety lessons of interest to pilots who bother to trawl through Pprune forums. But someone still has to go to the trouble of putting this info on Pprune and not just the same contributors whose user names dominate flight safety discussions. Mea Culpa.
Most experienced pilots will have had at least one almighty fright in their flying career - yet understandably are reluctant to put pen to Pprune lest they be labelled with the dreaded accusation of being a "line-shooter". Lessons learned by these experienced pilots are thus often lost to the rest of us and especially to the younger generation of pilots brought up from CPL standard directly into fly-by-wire glass cockpit aircraft. That is a pity since they miss out on what could be vital flight safety information. The excellent reliability of modern airliners mean that rarely do events turn nasty on the pilot. But if something does go seriously wrong in a few seconds, the crew may be caught completely off guard.
For this reason, I thought that experienced Ppruners could do an awful lot of good by sharing with the younger generation of pilots a brief account of their one or more seriously close shaves. Cold hard facts where possible. When this thread eventually dies away as things do on Pprune, then what you have contributed may have helped prevent a similar close call. I'll start it off - and please remember it is not a line-shoot and maybe not that dramatic - but it sure frightened me for a couple of seconds:
In 1978, Agana US Navy airbase at Guam in the Marianna Islands of the SW Pacific, shared the facility with civilian operators. There are two parallel runways 6R and 6L. An ILS is on 6L and the runway is over 9000 ft long. To depart 6L, aircraft back track 6R full length and hold at ninety degrees to the final approach path on the taxiway joining 6R and 6L. From recall, the horizontal distance between the threshold of both runways is around 150 yards. It was common practice for traffic using the 6L ILS to side-step right to land 6R if weather permitted. This gave more efficient utilisation between military and civil traffic.
We were flying a B737-200 from Manila to Guam and cleared via the 6L ILS to side step right for 6R when visual. Cloud base around 1000 ft and dark night - wind calm. ATC cleared a PANAM aircraft to hold between 6L and 6R and be ready for immediate departure 6L once we had called side-stepping. After we became visual and turned slightly right away from the ILS in order to line up for 6R, ATC cleared PANAM for line up and immediate take off 6L.
There was no VASIS for 6R and once we were outside the ILS localiser the glide slope was obviously not usable. We were aware of a flashing beacon of the PANAM aircraft but because of lack of lighting could not determine if the aircraft was still holding on the taxiway, or in the process of lining up on 6L
Our approach was stabilised by 500 ft agl at Vref plus 5 and guess work for on slope. In fact we passed over the threshold of 6R about 80 feet. As 6R was 8000 ft there was no problem with landing length. At that point the situation changed dramatically.
Without any warning it felt as though the 737 simply fell out of the sky and the F/O sang out out "Bug minus 20". That was Vref minus 20. We experienced marked wing drops in both directions. I fire-walled the thrust levers and pulled back on the control wheel towards 15-18 degrees body angle up. Just as the aircraft appeared to hit the runway at high sink, the thrust cut in and we headed up and soon after we were back in cloud still at full thrust.
We were then radar vectored for another ILS with an uneventful landing; this time on 6L. Investigation revealed that the PANAM 747 was still on the taxiway a minute or so after being cleared for immediate take off 6L but delayed lining up. The aircraft had then opened up to break-away power on the taxiway just as we passed behind him at 80 feet. His jet blast caught us causing momentary loss of control. Because of night conditions we had been unaware of his exact position and thus never noticed the tail of the 747 pointing right at us as we passed close behind.
Lesson learned? Jet blast can cause a close shave just as much as windshear.
............................................................ ........................
Last edited by A37575; 5th June 2010 at 08:53.
Joined: Aug 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
I wrote most of my stories up a while ago, on jetblast. (None from my present company!!) 
You can find them here:
A few flying stories
You can find them here:
A few flying stories
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 610
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From: France
Sit up and take notice or close shaves
1: From a post of mine in PPrune on 11th November 2008.
" Collision avoidance in cloud. It has been a risk since flying began. About all you can do is listen on the radio for conflicting traffic and hope that you manage to see them when you are in cloud.
I recall a near miss in the Bindook area many years ago on the way to Sydney, going through clulmus cloud and just as I was leaving one and before entering the next one, an unannounced VFR traffic crossed at right angles to me at our altitude. That was my luck for the day."
2 Departing Kuching for Singapore one day, climbing through about Flight level150 and between Thunderstorms, we took a lightning strike just on the right hand side of the cockpit. The First Officer, even through he was well strapped in, hit his head on the roof of the cockpit and knocked himself out. After a short while he came back to a conscious state and I always remember his first words, "Captain, I was not much help to you in that, was I", He is now a Captain on a Citation Ten Bizjet.
The remainder of the trip to Singapore had lots of problems due to static build up in the aircraft, however we made it even with plenty of holes in the wing trailing edges and the elevators on the tail plane.
3: I had three complete loss of pressure incidents, all from Flight Level 410 in South East Asia, before we found the fix and on the first one, both the quick don masks failed to operate correctly due to faulty surclips. We used passenger masks that came out of the ceiling while we got down to a breathable altitude
4: The Dance of the Falcon at Sydney Airport on runway 16R with a low level Jet Upset that we were luckly to come back from!
Tmb
" Collision avoidance in cloud. It has been a risk since flying began. About all you can do is listen on the radio for conflicting traffic and hope that you manage to see them when you are in cloud.
I recall a near miss in the Bindook area many years ago on the way to Sydney, going through clulmus cloud and just as I was leaving one and before entering the next one, an unannounced VFR traffic crossed at right angles to me at our altitude. That was my luck for the day."
2 Departing Kuching for Singapore one day, climbing through about Flight level150 and between Thunderstorms, we took a lightning strike just on the right hand side of the cockpit. The First Officer, even through he was well strapped in, hit his head on the roof of the cockpit and knocked himself out. After a short while he came back to a conscious state and I always remember his first words, "Captain, I was not much help to you in that, was I", He is now a Captain on a Citation Ten Bizjet.
The remainder of the trip to Singapore had lots of problems due to static build up in the aircraft, however we made it even with plenty of holes in the wing trailing edges and the elevators on the tail plane.
3: I had three complete loss of pressure incidents, all from Flight Level 410 in South East Asia, before we found the fix and on the first one, both the quick don masks failed to operate correctly due to faulty surclips. We used passenger masks that came out of the ceiling while we got down to a breathable altitude
4: The Dance of the Falcon at Sydney Airport on runway 16R with a low level Jet Upset that we were luckly to come back from!
Tmb
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,052
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From: Put out to graze
I remember looking out of the top of the canopy, upside down, nothing on the clock but the makers name and being able to count the rivets on the underside of an F-104 that had appeared in the low level melee without me noticing! Shudder!
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Location: Location:
Great thread gents, keep it going.
My only claim as relevant is hearing the R/A call out 30 while sitting in the J/S of a DC10-30 after a hard landing for the 2nd time..
My only claim as relevant is hearing the R/A call out 30 while sitting in the J/S of a DC10-30 after a hard landing for the 2nd time..
There but for the grace of god
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
kickthetires
Mine was closer--head-on with another A-10 at about 400 feet AGL! Seat worked, which is why I can write this post.
GF
PS: Also why I was Galaxy flyer--lots of metal in my spine.
Mine was closer--head-on with another A-10 at about 400 feet AGL! Seat worked, which is why I can write this post.
GF
PS: Also why I was Galaxy flyer--lots of metal in my spine.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 273
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From: Kerikeri, New Zealand or Noosa Queensland. Depending on the time of year!
Had a few close shaves over the years but the closest was flying a B-747 (F) Singapore to London at F.L 310. Just west of Bombay requested and received clearance to climb F.L.350. As we climbed through 330, in cloud IMC and at night, heard opposite traffic taking a TCAS avoidance.
Realising that we were the traffic being avoided, I established communication with the other aircraft only to find out that it was also a B-747 and that we had missed each other by less than 400 feet. No sighting was made by either crew.
At that time my companies freighter aircraft were not fitted with TCAS but fortunately the opposite traffic was.
Subsequently, "Incident Reports" were filed but no reply was ever received from the Indian authorities.
Realising that we were the traffic being avoided, I established communication with the other aircraft only to find out that it was also a B-747 and that we had missed each other by less than 400 feet. No sighting was made by either crew.
At that time my companies freighter aircraft were not fitted with TCAS but fortunately the opposite traffic was.
Subsequently, "Incident Reports" were filed but no reply was ever received from the Indian authorities.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 143
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From: New Forest
Amongst Quite a Few
Some years ago, over central Singapore, in bound Changi, TCAS sprung to life. About 3,000ft over Paya Lebar I initially saw a white circle, quickly followed by amber TFC followed by red RA "Climb" then "Descend" then "Clear of Tfc". All in all about 3 or 4 secs. ATC said "No tfc". Subsequent investigation through the military, disclosed a pair of visiting F106 (IIRC) left Payar Lebar and climbed vertically to FL Astro, passing (mercifully) either side of my 767.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 511
Likes: 1
From: Great Southern Land
A long time ago as a young FO I was doing a check list on a BAC 1-11, the Captain was flying the ILS for the southerly runway at Malaga in broken cloud. Suddenly he said F%*k and abruptly banked the aircraft, I looked out my side window and read the the rego of a 172 going backwards, it was probably no more than 40 meters away!
The 172 was VFR traffic that was supposed to be 10nm west of the airfield but I guess he decided it was better to do the ILS and not tell anyone............no radar at Malaga in those days!
The 172 was VFR traffic that was supposed to be 10nm west of the airfield but I guess he decided it was better to do the ILS and not tell anyone............no radar at Malaga in those days!
Last edited by Offchocks; 10th June 2010 at 00:01.
Joined: Jun 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Australia
One of our company 737's was inbound to Taipei visually when the crew were astonished to see two F5 fighters seemingly climbing vertically very close and through the Boeing's altitude. The crew queried Taipei ATC saying it was a near miss and no warning from ATC.
ATC replied there was no problem as the F5's were on a VFR clearance. Not my personal experience but thought I would toss it in for good measure
ATC replied there was no problem as the F5's were on a VFR clearance. Not my personal experience but thought I would toss it in for good measure
