737 NG Tankering
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: East of Monkey Island!
737 NG Tankering
Does anybody know if boeing approved turning off the center tank fuel pumps before the center tank is empty?
This is to get some fuel out off the wing tanks to avoid Non enviromental icing after landing.
I have heard some opperators have approval for this.
This is to get some fuel out off the wing tanks to avoid Non enviromental icing after landing.
I have heard some opperators have approval for this.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Where would you like me to live??
As far as I'm aware it's a big no no from boeing but im ready to be proved wrong. Only time fuel should be left in the centre tanks is if you/ your aircraft doesn't have the fuel pump mod or approval to use it and you have to leave 500kgs in the tank to keep the pumps saturated.
On a slight side note does anyone happen to have a rough fuel pricing table. Many companies produce them giving an idea of where the fuel is cheap so you can decide to tank or not. My old company used to have one but my current company doesn't so i'd love to have a look at a more current one. Euro Ops.
On a slight side note does anyone happen to have a rough fuel pricing table. Many companies produce them giving an idea of where the fuel is cheap so you can decide to tank or not. My old company used to have one but my current company doesn't so i'd love to have a look at a more current one. Euro Ops.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
Discussed before and I certainly used it. I think it was discussed on the Fuel Frost thread. I think the resolution was that since Boeing had not issued a 'no objection' ruling on it it was not flavour of the month. I have not seen it in a company SOP for a while now.
It worked brilliantly and the only two caveats were to ensure that max wing root load was not exceeded (NB ZFW) and to ensure that the now incorrect c of g was taken into account It saved many de-icings or delays before the introduction of acceptable upper surface frost on the modified NGs.
Todders - another company's fuel price table will be of very little use to you since most companies negotiate different 'contracts' at different airfields.
It worked brilliantly and the only two caveats were to ensure that max wing root load was not exceeded (NB ZFW) and to ensure that the now incorrect c of g was taken into account It saved many de-icings or delays before the introduction of acceptable upper surface frost on the modified NGs.
Todders - another company's fuel price table will be of very little use to you since most companies negotiate different 'contracts' at different airfields.
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Brisbane, Australia
My current understanding of the basic limitations of fuel distribution in the 737NG are that;
Without the wing tanks being full, a maximum of 453 kgs (1000 lbs) is all that can be carried in the centre tank, fullstop!
Pls advise if this is not the case.
Cheers...FD...
Without the wing tanks being full, a maximum of 453 kgs (1000 lbs) is all that can be carried in the centre tank, fullstop!
Pls advise if this is not the case.
Cheers...FD...
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Europe-the sunshine side
If you still have the fuel restrictions imposed,then you may select center tank pumps off when under 1400 kg, during descent.
You should check your AFM, and if you have a limitation there, respect it, and inform the dispatch you won't do tankering, or you'll perform deiceing if needed. Don't try to make your own NP or limitations.
You should check your AFM, and if you have a limitation there, respect it, and inform the dispatch you won't do tankering, or you'll perform deiceing if needed. Don't try to make your own NP or limitations.
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Europe
@ Flight Detent:
The 453 kgs may be exceeded if, for example, the main tanks are both inop with fuel left in the center tank.
Our MEL says that the center tank fuel has to be added to the ZFW in this case.
@ Vark Driver:
NO NO NO frost at upper wings!
Cheers
The 453 kgs may be exceeded if, for example, the main tanks are both inop with fuel left in the center tank.
Our MEL says that the center tank fuel has to be added to the ZFW in this case.
@ Vark Driver:
NO NO NO frost at upper wings!
Cheers
Joined: Jul 1998
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From: Northern Europe
Upper wing frost
VD et all,
Don't know about the US but in Europe there are airlines with approval for take offs with frost on upper wing surfaces under certain condition, i.e. max 1.5mm, temperature above freezing, inside marked area etc.
Cheers.
Don't know about the US but in Europe there are airlines with approval for take offs with frost on upper wing surfaces under certain condition, i.e. max 1.5mm, temperature above freezing, inside marked area etc.
Cheers.
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: right here
CSFF - cold soaked fuel frost
on the upper surface of the wing there are those black lines indicating where CSFF is permissible.
from the book:
Takeoff with light coatings of frost on upper wing surfaces due to cold fuel (cold-soaked fuel frost) is allowable, provided the following conditions are
met:
• the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness
• the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
• the frost is on or between the black lines defining the allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
• the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0°C, 32°F)
• there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle or fog withless than 1 mile visibility, etc.)
If all the above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed using appropriate deicing/anti-icing procedures.
Note: If the frost on the lower surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness, the frost on the upper surface will be less than 1/16 inch(1.5 mm) in thickness.
from the book:
Takeoff with light coatings of frost on upper wing surfaces due to cold fuel (cold-soaked fuel frost) is allowable, provided the following conditions are
met:
• the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness
• the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
• the frost is on or between the black lines defining the allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
• the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0°C, 32°F)
• there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle or fog withless than 1 mile visibility, etc.)
If all the above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed using appropriate deicing/anti-icing procedures.
Note: If the frost on the lower surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness, the frost on the upper surface will be less than 1/16 inch(1.5 mm) in thickness.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
Please not pages of who does and who doesn't
- it is available for anyone who wants to use it. No-one HAS to
Well covered on PPRuNe if you search AND Boeing/FAA/CAA approved subject to limitations/mods.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: In a far better place
I transfer fuel from the wings to the centre tank if large amounts of fuel is required for the return. Works well as long as the air temp is not too cold and the fuel entering the jet is warm. Worked well during the fall and late spring.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,480
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From: In a far better place
BOAC asks...
Yes... on QTA's on the -800 and -700. However the fuel being uplifted needs to be warm.
It's not a guaranteed method to melt NEI off the wing by the time fueling is complete. Fuel transfer must be complete prior to fuel uplift. With that being said additional time is required since the Supplementary Normal Procedures contained in the carrier's FCOM needs to be used. Also time allowances for the fuel transfer from the wings to the centre needs to be taken inot consideration too. Some areas of operations in Spain, Italy and North Africa do not have de-icing trucks let alone the reliable back packs.
- which a/c is that, then, Captain? Maybe you are doing it on turnround?
It's not a guaranteed method to melt NEI off the wing by the time fueling is complete. Fuel transfer must be complete prior to fuel uplift. With that being said additional time is required since the Supplementary Normal Procedures contained in the carrier's FCOM needs to be used. Also time allowances for the fuel transfer from the wings to the centre needs to be taken inot consideration too. Some areas of operations in Spain, Italy and North Africa do not have de-icing trucks let alone the reliable back packs.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
Much easier to incorporate Boeing's approved mod. You are a lucky man to have enough time on a t/r to do that! Not forgetting trying to keep the refuelling truck sitting there while you do it and all the other a/c are waiting for fuel..............and all in Spanish too!