A340 Fuel jettison on ground?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Baotou, China
A340 Fuel jettison on ground?
Dear All,
I am an A340 F/O under instruction, actually this was my second flight. The instructor asked me what happen if I press the fuel jettison pushbutton on the overhead panel while the aircraft is on ground, energized but with the engines not running.
I said that according to the FCOM 1 ( 1.28.10 page 22) it says nothing about jettison fuel on ground, only refers inflight at whatever altitude, even with slats and landing gear down the fuel will be jettisoned. But says absolutelly nothing if you press the those pushbuttons on ground.
Please, can somebody tell me what will happen? Thank you guys!
I am an A340 F/O under instruction, actually this was my second flight. The instructor asked me what happen if I press the fuel jettison pushbutton on the overhead panel while the aircraft is on ground, energized but with the engines not running.
I said that according to the FCOM 1 ( 1.28.10 page 22) it says nothing about jettison fuel on ground, only refers inflight at whatever altitude, even with slats and landing gear down the fuel will be jettisoned. But says absolutelly nothing if you press the those pushbuttons on ground.
Please, can somebody tell me what will happen? Thank you guys!
Joined: May 2000
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From: Glorious West Sussex
Hi Max
FCOM 1 says the Jettison system "Makes it possible to jettison fuel in flight". It does NOT say "and on the ground". My experience of Airbus FCOM... they often leave out the word "only" when it would be really useful! Also..
1. It would be madness to make it possible on the ground.
2. There would be a big caution in the FCOM if it were possible.
Caution: I am not A340-rated......
FCOM 1 says the Jettison system "Makes it possible to jettison fuel in flight". It does NOT say "and on the ground". My experience of Airbus FCOM... they often leave out the word "only" when it would be really useful! Also..
1. It would be madness to make it possible on the ground.
2. There would be a big caution in the FCOM if it were possible.
Caution: I am not A340-rated......
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Baotou, China
Hi Tyro,
Thank you for your opinion mate, totally agree about jettison fuel on the ground as is unnecessary to do so. I would like to have an official written page or document to scrub in the instructor face until I got tired. Thank you Tyro!
Thank you for your opinion mate, totally agree about jettison fuel on the ground as is unnecessary to do so. I would like to have an official written page or document to scrub in the instructor face until I got tired. Thank you Tyro!
.. Ask him what has 7 knots - the escape rope...
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Sweden
Max Motoring
May I suggest you ask the same question in the Engineers and Technicians forum?
Anyone who has access to the AMM could almost certainly provide a definite answer and possibly an AMM reference to back it up.
May I suggest you ask the same question in the Engineers and Technicians forum?
Anyone who has access to the AMM could almost certainly provide a definite answer and possibly an AMM reference to back it up.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 615
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From: Middle England
Has this "instructor" joined very recently? Perhaps ex Jet Airways.
What possible scenario would have you dumping fuel whilst on the ground when the engines are shut down?
What possible scenario would have you dumping fuel whilst on the ground when the engines are shut down?
Last edited by 763 jock; 11th December 2009 at 19:20.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 187
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From: Europe
It^s been a while since I had a look at 28-31 but: I don^t remember air/ground signal changes anything in the jettison system. Therefore, I would put my money on "yes, you can dump fuel on the ground".
Need to look at the schematics, though, to confirm.
Cheers, J.V.
Need to look at the schematics, though, to confirm.
Cheers, J.V.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 259
Likes: 57
From: Asia
No data regarding A340 in hand but a quick check of a 747 classic and 744 AMM I have on my computer shows there is NO air/ground signal and that jettison system will work on the ground.
Once had a helpful mechanic accidentally jettison some fuel on a CV880 during overnight maintenance. Thought he was helping me by leak checking a jettison pump he had just replaced but didn't realise that in doing so he had pumped some gas out of the RH nozzle.
Once had a helpful mechanic accidentally jettison some fuel on a CV880 during overnight maintenance. Thought he was helping me by leak checking a jettison pump he had just replaced but didn't realise that in doing so he had pumped some gas out of the RH nozzle.
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 1,615
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From: wherever
You definitely can on the Nimrod but you need an engine running to pressurise the tanks. There was a trick to close a leaky NRV in the vent system using nitrogen and blue roll. If neither was available pulling the dump valve cb's starting up an engine and hitting the dump switches would also close the faulty NRV.
Warning: make sure you pull the correct CBs as failure to do so could dump 2000lb of fuel on the apron in malmo with a bbc tv crew on board to see it happen!
Note: the contents of this post are probably completely fictional and not based on any real people or events and should not replace any published procedures in the AFM.
Warning: make sure you pull the correct CBs as failure to do so could dump 2000lb of fuel on the apron in malmo with a bbc tv crew on board to see it happen!
Note: the contents of this post are probably completely fictional and not based on any real people or events and should not replace any published procedures in the AFM.
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Up front
"Nothing to stop you from jettisoning on Ground as long as the bus`s are powered and the cb`s are in" - this is an Airbus:
1. It does not have a simple air/ground system but goes through about 9 phases from starting to shutting down that are advertised to the flight crew - there may and probably are more!!
2. Numerous: functions, warnings, auto functions are inhibited in these phases... A simple example if the Taxi camera is left on on the Pilots Flight Display during take-off it will change over to the flight display at 70 kts (camera function inhibited) ...Some Engine auto shut down functions are inhibited in flight..etc.
Unless this Instructor had the answer chapter and verse to his question and or the purpose was to illustrate something along the above lines?? The original poster has not enlightened us.
My answer. The fuel jettison is a guarded red switch - why on earth would I press it on the ground? If you forget it on during dumping for an overweight landing what will happen? Thats a relevant queston...
1. It does not have a simple air/ground system but goes through about 9 phases from starting to shutting down that are advertised to the flight crew - there may and probably are more!!
2. Numerous: functions, warnings, auto functions are inhibited in these phases... A simple example if the Taxi camera is left on on the Pilots Flight Display during take-off it will change over to the flight display at 70 kts (camera function inhibited) ...Some Engine auto shut down functions are inhibited in flight..etc.
Unless this Instructor had the answer chapter and verse to his question and or the purpose was to illustrate something along the above lines?? The original poster has not enlightened us.
My answer. The fuel jettison is a guarded red switch - why on earth would I press it on the ground? If you forget it on during dumping for an overweight landing what will happen? Thats a relevant queston...
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 3,038
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From: .
To carry out an operational test on the ground the only cb's you have to pull are for the fuel pumps, this prevents fuel pressure forcing the fuel out, you do get some fuel out though. There are no other factors involved from what I can see, doors don't have to be closed, eng's don't have to be running, no forced logic to get it anywhere but on the ground. Which says to me yes it can be done.
Why? because it's airbus!
Why? because it's airbus!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Baotou, China
The instructor said later that you can jettison on the ground the same way as you can pull the fire handle and discharge the bottles even if the aircraft is only battery supplied. In this case (aircraft with ext power on), you press the jettison pushbuttons and the STBY fuel pumps starts running, all x valve are open and there is no protection to stop you. the conlcusion: there is no logic, but you can jettison on the ground.
But this my conclusion only, I will ask an A340 engineer and then I will post again. Thank for your opinions mates!
But this my conclusion only, I will ask an A340 engineer and then I will post again. Thank for your opinions mates!
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Sweden
Maybe as it is an emergency system the logic is "keep it simple" . The simpler it is, the less can go wrong with it , the more likely it is to work when you need it.
There is no need to make things "idiot proof" if they are not designed to be used by idiots is there?
Makes sense to me as a technician/mechanic/whatever I'm called these days.
There is no need to make things "idiot proof" if they are not designed to be used by idiots is there?
Makes sense to me as a technician/mechanic/whatever I'm called these days.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Not Airbus qual'd, but why on Earth would you want to fuel jettison on the ground, hence why isn't the fuel jettison system wired through the WOW sensor? Unless Airbus wanted us to demo fuel dumping to the BBC, of course.
Sorry FEHoppy
GF
Sorry FEHoppy
GF
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Sweden
Spannersatcx and CV880 have confirmed that both Boeing and Airbus follow the same design philosophy. I reckon there is a reason for it, as I mentioned 2 posts ago.
Can anyone confirm that any aircraft that they operate/maintain has a fuel dump system with air/ground switching?
Can anyone confirm that any aircraft that they operate/maintain has a fuel dump system with air/ground switching?