Armed Flight Crew -Question??
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Interesting that this should generate controversy from ppruners stateside where guns are far mosr part of everyday life than in the UK. Interesting too that Egyptair was quoted as a reason not to arm pilots. At least some pilots in that country are armed. On a tourist balloon flight recently the pilot took out a shiny revolver from his briefcase and, in front of pax, tucked it into his waistband.
I'm also intrigued that some who oppose the idea are in favour of armed skymarshals -who have at least as much likelihood of turning rogue as us but are in the cabin with the risk of having their weapon taken by nasty people.
I'm also intrigued that some who oppose the idea are in favour of armed skymarshals -who have at least as much likelihood of turning rogue as us but are in the cabin with the risk of having their weapon taken by nasty people.
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YouTube - How pilots scare terroists * Funny *
Is this the sort of armed flight deck you maybe want to know about.
Is this the sort of armed flight deck you maybe want to know about.
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However, for the benefit of all, could you please tell us your views on CRM.
In my early airline ops (4-engine piston types before, the then 4-engine jets and, even now, with my large three engine widebody jet) we have something much better...it is called crew co-ordination.
If you have ever used this idea, you would reject so-called 'CRM' in a New York minute...(IE: pretty rapidly).
Airlines today (and especially younger crew members in said airlines), have bought into the 'CRM' nonsense, hook, line, and sinker...whereas, what should be done is, that tried and true...crew co-ordination.
Works good, lasts a loooooong time.
Sharpshooter (and others), I assume you have read some of 411A's previous posts.
Do you really think that you will be able to change his views?
I am a firm believer in the benefits of both CRM and crew co-ordination. I also believe that someone with 411A's extensive experience, who has survived to tell a few tales, must be doing something right. Sure, we can all mock his apparently reactionary statements; but if we read between the lines, ignore some of the bluster and try to glean the real meaning of what he is saying, we might all learn something (just as he might learn something from a properly constructed and delivered CRM course. Then he might not think it is a 'total and complete waste of time').
All successful multi-crew operations must have a commander, who is ultimately in charge, and to whom the other crew members owe a duty of respect and default co-operation. That's assuming of course that the commander is properly qualified, trained and assessed by the appropriate authorities, and operates in accordance with the laid down procedures and manuals. The same applies to the sub-ordinate (note the word!) crew members, each of whom has a duty to support the commander in the safe execution of the flight (a paraphrase of some Ops Manuals).
Let's not get too hung up on words like 'belong' or 'assign'. It seems to me that some of us assume that 411A is a bit of a 'dinosaur' in the flightdeck when it comes to CRM, but until and unless we have direct experience, we don't know. I've flown with captains who said things similar to some of 411A's utterances. Some of them were arrogant fools and some were skilful pilots who actually displayed good team skills and engendered a high level of crew loyalty, despite their avowed negative views on CRM. Maybe they were 'unconscious competents', i.e. those who have a natural skill of which they are unaware.
I've also flown with captains and co-pilots who displayed very good 'soft skills', who were 'emotionally intelligent' and who couldn't track an ADF needle even if their life depended on it. Which would you rather have next to you when the 'chips are down' on a dark and dirty night?
While I am sure that the CRM training I have received has improved both my teamworking and that of my colleagues, it hasn't done a lot to sharpen my flying skills. It's true that CRM issues are a major factor in a lot of accidents, but then so is loss of control. If 411A puts more weight on 'old fashioned' flying skills, as opposed to 'new fangled' NOTECHS, then I for one think his is a voice worth listening to.
As with most things, especially in aviation, it comes down to intelligent compromise.
Eckhard (Sorry for thread creep, just a bit fed up with the 411A bashers out there!)
Do you really think that you will be able to change his views?
I am a firm believer in the benefits of both CRM and crew co-ordination. I also believe that someone with 411A's extensive experience, who has survived to tell a few tales, must be doing something right. Sure, we can all mock his apparently reactionary statements; but if we read between the lines, ignore some of the bluster and try to glean the real meaning of what he is saying, we might all learn something (just as he might learn something from a properly constructed and delivered CRM course. Then he might not think it is a 'total and complete waste of time').
All successful multi-crew operations must have a commander, who is ultimately in charge, and to whom the other crew members owe a duty of respect and default co-operation. That's assuming of course that the commander is properly qualified, trained and assessed by the appropriate authorities, and operates in accordance with the laid down procedures and manuals. The same applies to the sub-ordinate (note the word!) crew members, each of whom has a duty to support the commander in the safe execution of the flight (a paraphrase of some Ops Manuals).
Let's not get too hung up on words like 'belong' or 'assign'. It seems to me that some of us assume that 411A is a bit of a 'dinosaur' in the flightdeck when it comes to CRM, but until and unless we have direct experience, we don't know. I've flown with captains who said things similar to some of 411A's utterances. Some of them were arrogant fools and some were skilful pilots who actually displayed good team skills and engendered a high level of crew loyalty, despite their avowed negative views on CRM. Maybe they were 'unconscious competents', i.e. those who have a natural skill of which they are unaware.
I've also flown with captains and co-pilots who displayed very good 'soft skills', who were 'emotionally intelligent' and who couldn't track an ADF needle even if their life depended on it. Which would you rather have next to you when the 'chips are down' on a dark and dirty night?
While I am sure that the CRM training I have received has improved both my teamworking and that of my colleagues, it hasn't done a lot to sharpen my flying skills. It's true that CRM issues are a major factor in a lot of accidents, but then so is loss of control. If 411A puts more weight on 'old fashioned' flying skills, as opposed to 'new fangled' NOTECHS, then I for one think his is a voice worth listening to.
As with most things, especially in aviation, it comes down to intelligent compromise.
Eckhard (Sorry for thread creep, just a bit fed up with the 411A bashers out there!)
Last edited by eckhard; 24th Nov 2009 at 21:32.
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One has to wonder if Commander 411A was ever anything but a Commander? CRM does work and it has proven it'self time ane time again over the last two decades. I suspect that my flying experience and that of 411A is very similar in scope and years of service so where he has spent the last forty years makes me wonder. Maybe that's the way it was back in the sand box
Long live the L1011
Long live the L1011
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My,my,,,
How has this turned into a power struggle thread? Bottom line is once you break chocks there is a PIC, this pilot carries the burdon of maintaining procedure. If procedure is broken and not agreed upon mutany is a reality and will stand given the situation is just.
Hell I have observed Captains, or Commanders as you speak of act like children that I would not trust to operate my lawn mower safely. Fact is we are all human and are all subject to our transgressions. During these weak times when a PIC's judjement may be clouded by personal issues ETC, this is the reason for a co-pilot.
Just don't forget who is in command at the gate... The Guy who can MEL your autopilot...
Much love,
Muduckace
How has this turned into a power struggle thread? Bottom line is once you break chocks there is a PIC, this pilot carries the burdon of maintaining procedure. If procedure is broken and not agreed upon mutany is a reality and will stand given the situation is just.
Hell I have observed Captains, or Commanders as you speak of act like children that I would not trust to operate my lawn mower safely. Fact is we are all human and are all subject to our transgressions. During these weak times when a PIC's judjement may be clouded by personal issues ETC, this is the reason for a co-pilot.
Just don't forget who is in command at the gate... The Guy who can MEL your autopilot...
Much love,
Muduckace
