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AF 447 Search to resume

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AF 447 Search to resume

Old 19th Apr 2011, 21:56
  #3681 (permalink)  
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Reliant Robin V max is > 100 mph

Allegedly .....

CW

BBC News | BUSINESS | End of the road for Reliant Robin

worlds fastest reliant robin - Wirral - wikiwirral.co.uk
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 22:20
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Cool

Hi,

In the press (BEA)
Communiqu de presse, 12/02/2010

The ship must recover the wreckage of the Air France plane crashed into the sea off Brazil in 2009, will join the port of Dakar on the night of Thursday to Friday and should be in the area of ​​the accident during the Easter weekend.

"A few hours stopover in Dakar is scheduled to ship before the investigation team to visit the area of ​​the accident," said a statement from the Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA).

The director of technical investigation, Alain Bouillard, will be assisted by three investigators from the BEA, a safety investigator from the AAIB (UK counterpart of BEA), an investigator security CENIP (Brazilian counterpart) of three experts from European manufacturer Airbus, an expert Air France, an American specialist imaging sonar that participated in Phase 4 research at sea and a psychologist.

In addition, four police officers (OPJ) and three specialists from the Institute of Criminal Research of the National Gendarmerie will be on board for the judicial side.

"Phase 5 will begin with the detailed observation of the accident site and search for flight recorders," said BEA. "Once located, they will be reassembled (...) and immediately placed under seal. They will then be escorted by a Navy ship to a French port, and then airlifted to BEA under the responsibility of an OPJ" , said the French agency.

Last edited by jcjeant; 19th Apr 2011 at 22:32.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 22:39
  #3683 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like a reasonable complement of personnel to ensure transparency. The psychologist is a curious addition.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:16
  #3684 (permalink)  
 
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Remora 6000 - ROV Specifications

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Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:24
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cjeant, that BEA communique was last December, I wonder if that is the team that is onboard now, and if Plan 5 remains the same?
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:29
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promani

The link text as posted is incorrect. The media release in French is dated 2011-04-19 and represents the current situation with regard to the Phase 5 - Recovery operation.

Last edited by mm43; 19th Apr 2011 at 23:40.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:36
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Khashoggi

The psychologist is a curious addition.

I suspect that is due to the report in Der Spiegel that the Alucia left due to "Too high psychological load" on the workers.

Last edited by AVLNative; 19th Apr 2011 at 23:37. Reason: title added...
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:37
  #3688 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Khashoggi View Post
The psychologist is a curious addition.
According to German news reports, the IFM-GEOMAR institute (Kiel/Germany), which participated in the last mission with their REMUS 6000 (AUV ABYSS) declined to participate in the upcoming mission (with their ROV Kiel 6000) because the "level of psychological stress would be too high". So maybe there's a hint why a psychologist is part of the team.

In German:
SPIEGEL report
Absturz von AF 447: Kieler Forscher steigen bei Wrack-Bergung aus - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wissenschaft
Press Release IFM GEOMAR
IFM-GEOMAR: Aktuelles aus dem IFM-GEOMAR
 
Old 19th Apr 2011, 23:53
  #3689 (permalink)  
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machaca

howdy. I see two planar considerations for Fin performance, lateral (side to side), and longitudinal (fore and aft). Each of these planes is addressed separately. The pins and brackets snub each stress in differing responses relative to strength. The side to side is captured by a narrow breadth of lug to lug span, the longitudinal by the distance of the saddles fore to aft. The longitudinal consideration addresses drag, the lateral, Rudder deflection and or fin divergence from airstream (Fin/AoA). The stronger structure reacts to drag (it has greater length, or 'pivot'), and the lateral relies on a shorter throw to control what I see as a potentially larger stress, that of side to side sweep, the action that destroyed 587.

Each of these planes is of course rectilinear, though the stresses are not always so in flight. The Fin and Rudder are constantly changing their respective 'attitude' depending on the slipstream, and control inputs. The failure of 587's VS started at the aftermost right lug and rotated forward capturing each of the other lugs in sequence, in a circular motion due to torsional, side to side, and longitudinal stresses. The alteration of stress puts right angle joints at a disadvantage, for the designed consideration weakens as the stress partner acts in the other plane.

An airload that could be responsible for the removal of 447's fin could be drag alone, in overspeed, with an overswept Rudder. Such drag would put a great load on the aft bracket downward into the fuselage, perhaps scrubbing the Rudders corner as it pressed down into the tail cone. If there were other stresses in 'concert' with drag, eg lateral and longitudinal, it would not surprise that the Fin may have failed sequentially, losing its joins 'gradually'. Remember that 587's engines were scraped clean in an aft and sideways manner at less than 210 knots.

Further, looking at 447's powerplant, with no vestige of pylon or wing structure attached, one's breath is taken, and to consider that somehow a rather fragile structure as the fin survived 'unscathed' simply defies logic.

Nothing of what I propose is meant to dissuade or foreclose other explanations, at all. I am astonished at the complete disintegration in the debris field here. Absolutely nothing seems to have remained attached to anything.
 
Old 20th Apr 2011, 00:00
  #3690 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure where you sourced that press communiqué in English, jcjeant (is it your own translation?), but it can't be dated 12/2/2010...

The Anglophone edition of the BEA website is understandably lagging a bit behind the Francophone, but for the record here is the French text at this hour:

"Communiqué de presse diffusé le 19 avril 2011

"Le navire câblier Ile de Sein d'Alcatel-Lucent et Louis Dreyfus Armateurs quitte le port de Las Palmas (Iles Canaries) aujourd'hui, avec à son bord un robot Remora 6000 et l'équipe d'opérateurs de Phoenix International Inc. Il doit rejoindre le port de Dakar dans la nuit du jeudi 21 au vendredi 22 avril. Une escale de quelques heures est prévue à Dakar pour embarquer l'équipe d'enquête avant de se rendre sur la zone de l'accident.

"Cette équipe, dirigée par le directeur de l'enquête, Alain Bouillard, assisté de trois enquêteurs du BEA, sera composée :
- d'un enquêteur de sécurité de l'AAIB (homologue britannique du BEA) ;
- d'un enquêteur de sécurité du CENIPA (homologue brésilien du BEA) ;
- de trois experts d'Airbus ;
- d'un expert d'Air France ;
- d'un spécialiste américain d'imagerie sonar ayant participé à la phase 4 des recherches en mer ;
- d'un psychologue.

"Seront également à bord du navire : quatre Officiers de la Police Judiciaire (OPJ) assistés de trois spécialistes de l'Institut de Recherches Criminelles de la Gendarmerie Nationale (IRCGN)

"La phase 5 débutera par l'observation détaillée du site de l'accident et la recherche des enregistreurs de vol. Une fois localisés, ils seront remontés à bord de l'Ile de Sein et placés immédiatement sous scellés ; ils seront ensuite convoyés par un navire de la Marine nationale vers un port français, puis acheminés par voie aérienne au BEA sous la responsabilité d'un OPJ.

"Dans l'intervalle, les pièces de l'avion utiles à l'enquête seront relevées.
Le BEA rappelle que la remontée des corps et des effets personnels est placée sous la responsabilité des représentants de la justice."

I'm delighted that they have decided to entertain both Brazilian and British air-accident investigators, not to mention one of the Woods Hole sonar-imagery experts, who seem to have done such a great job in Phase 4. wozzo's theory on the reason for the presence of a psychiatrist/psychologist makes sense in the particularly difficult circumstances of this recovery.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 00:37
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A Quick Translation

The cable laying ship Ile de Sein of Alcatel-Lucent and Louis Dreyfus Shipowner is leaving the port of Las Palmas (Canary Islands) today, with a robot Remora 6000 and operating team of Phoenix International Inc onboard. It should stop at the port of Dakar the night of Thursday 21 to Friday 22 April. A stop of a few hours is foreseen at Dakar to board the search team before heading to the accident zone.

"This team, directed by by the Director of the investigation, Alain Bouillard, with the assistance of three investigators of BEA, will be composed of:
- an investigator from AAIB (British equivalent of BEA) ;
- an investigator from CENIPA (Brazilian equivalent of BEA) ;
- three experts from Airbus ;
- one expert from Air France ;
- an American sonar imaging spécialist who has participated in phase 4 of the sea search ;
- a psychologist.

"Will equally be on on the ship: four Officers of the Judiciary Police (OPJ) assisted by three spécialists of the Institute of Criminal Research of the National Poliice (IRCGN)

"Phase 5 will begin with detailed observation of the accident site and the search for the flight recorders. Once found, they will be raised on board the Ile de Sein and immediately placéd under seal; they will then be taken by a national Navy ship to a French port, then flown to BEA under the responsibility of an OPJ officer.

"In the meantime, pieces of the aircraft useful for the investigation will be raised.
BEA reaffirms that raising bodies and personal effects remains under the responsibility of the judicial representatives."

Bonus: Louis Dreyfus Armateurs

Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 20th Apr 2011 at 01:07.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 01:46
  #3692 (permalink)  
 
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Psychologist a curious addition

Psychologist on the ship?

Come on. The limited view of the wreckage in the BEA photos should be indicative. The Alucia crew will all have seen much more gruesome detail and the Ile de Sein crew will see more. Not all can be expected to have the thick skins of accident investigators. Also, it is one thing is seeing remains of a land crash and being able to spew your guts out off-site, but another altogether seeing real, and apparently intact, people in their seats as you trawl over them photographing and looking for evidence, recognizing real people from a few frames before, even using them as reference points. And then being stuck on a ship day after day with all the people who've seen the same images or heard about them. Remember, the Ile de Sein is a cable laying vessel. Regardless of how segregated the teams are, the images or reports of same will get around. BEA may later think two psychologists might have been better.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 01:46
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Ile de sein

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions :

Ile de Sain
Call Sign: FOUD
IMO: 9247039, MMSI: 226235000
Lat / Lon: 26.72469˚ / -15.76169˚
Last Known Port: LAS PALMAS
Info Received: 23:05 UTC
Destination: DAKAR
ETA: 2011-04-22 07:00
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 01:48
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Hello bearfoil:

The failure of 587's VS started at the aftermost right lug and rotated forward capturing each of the other lugs in sequence
Yes, the lugs failed. Only the lugs. The six clevis remained intact as did the entire hoop/frame/skin assembly of AA587's section 19.


An airload that could be responsible for the removal of 447's fin could be drag alone, in overspeed, with an overswept Rudder. Such drag would put a great load on the aft bracket downward into the fuselage, perhaps scrubbing the Rudders corner as it pressed down into the tail cone. If there were other stresses in 'concert' with drag, eg lateral and longitudinal, it would not surprise that the Fin may have failed sequentially, losing its joins 'gradually'.
So you are suggesting AA587's VS pulled up and off due to excessive side loads, but similar excessive side loads on AF447's VS pushed it down with enough force to work the clevis lugs apart from the frame hoops?


somehow a rather fragile structure as the fin survived 'unscathed' simply defies logic.
That's just silly -- the VS is far from a fragile structure!!!
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 02:11
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broadreach - well said. The very eeriness of once living and loving persons, on the forlorn and barren ocean floor, effectively a billion miles from anything human, is almost too horrible to imagine, much less witness. At such times, prayers are the only recourse.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 02:53
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Not wishing to be gruesome, but aren't they going to recover portions of the fuselage from off the bottom. If so, it isn't going to be just images that the Ile de Sein crew encounters.
A psychologist is a good idea, I just hope he/she is a bit more effective than the one who used to greet us coming back from combat missions with a small satchel of government rotgut whiskey miniatures.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 04:33
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For the reasons already mentioned, a psychologist (if properly trained and experienced in such things) is an essential ingredient in efforts to reduce stress levels on such tasks. And I'm referring to both acute reactions to the work and the possibility of long term residual effects.

The inevitably nasty ("gruesome") nature of some of what will occur is of course one (very significant) component of that need. Additionally, if you have ever lived and worked at sea, or worked with a diverse group who may be less than comfortable with each other's roles (especially when you know the world is watching), or worked long long hours both day and night for a few months at a time, then think of the cumulative effect of all those stressors on this group of people.

In this case, I just hope one psychologist is enough...
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 05:02
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Is a psychologist part of every accident investigation team?

Or is the nature of AF447 unique enough to warrant it... Were they used on the TWA800 recovery vessels?

I don't downplay the potentially gruesome nature of the accident scene, but am sure most large accidents are gruesome, by nature, to the untrained.

The ship may have several crew members untrained in dealing with mass trauma scenes, so a psychologist may be useful and appropriate.
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 05:33
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Khashoggi,
You are correct - very useful.

I have been involved in ROV/Dive Team recovery of sunken vessels, (the O'Bahia trawler being one), on which the bodies of crew memebers were expected to be found.

Although we had them on the POB as 'Counsellors' rather than trick cyclists.

As an aside, hairy arsed divers being what they are, most of the counsellors time was spent with the ROV pilots not the divers!!
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Old 20th Apr 2011, 05:57
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Is a psychologist part of every accident investigation team?

Well, in most "first world" (and I certainly use that term loosely) investigations the answer is that access to a psychologist is a planned part of the "on scene" portions of an investigation. And also for some of the subsequent activities. For example, as you might imagine, actual voice recordings can be most traumatic to listen to.

Clearly, in this case access to a psychologist means that the person must be onboard the ship.
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