Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Experimental

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Experimental

Old 27th Oct 2009, 15:21
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Experimental

Hope this is the right place:

FAR 91.319 says (in part):

§ 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.


(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.


Preamble: I am teaching a couple of fellows in a Kitfox they own and they are paying me. I would not do it unless I was paid.
I own an experimental airplane that is not used for flight training (has no dual controls) but I would like to use it at night, and maybe to fly into a large town that has an airport surrounded by houses (congested airspace).

Questions: Is the ability to teach a person in an experimental airplane going away in January next year? What is an owner of an experimental airplane supposed to do after that? Does the para (h) allow for a deviation from that rule?
With regard to night operations, I read in AOPA once that provided the airplane had the right equipment fitted for night or IFR it could fly those situations without specific clearance, in fact I know a lot of people who do fly night/IFR and who have the same generic experimental CofA that I do. Should I approach the Feds or just asssume?
Has anyone had experience in these areas who could comment please?
boofhead is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 15:46
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,483
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Is the ability to teach a person in an experimental airplane going away in January next year? What is an owner of an experimental airplane supposed to do after that,....Should I approach the Feds or just asssume?
for that question it is best to contact a local FSDO---don't assume

Does the para (h) allow for a deviation from that rule?
With regard to night operations,
The Administrator may issue waivers for anything para[h] apparently would allow deviation provided you are equipped and stick with the limitaion of youir waiver

in fact I know a lot of people who do fly night/IFR and who have the same generic experimental CofA that I do....
2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator;

PA
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 17:15
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It is not that easy. Calling does not always get you through to an inspector who actually knows the subject, and sometimes you will not be told the truth.
Experimental airplanes are supposed to be used as experiments, but nowadays they are used for personal transport, aviation fun and the like. I don't know anyone who actually uses one for the purpose it was approved.
I was hoping someone has gone down this path before me and could let me know the pitfalls or traps. I could lose the use of my airplane if I open a can of worms. Asking for a deviation is asking for trouble.
In addition, the Kitfox is a Sport category airplane, which muddies the waters. Surely the authorities have not allowed a new category of airplane to be built with no way to train pilots on their use?
boofhead is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 17:17
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Please excuse me as an outside observer, certainly not a Test Pilot but have a fair bit of time in the air with some of the best T.P's in the world, and also other rather less experienced but more arrogant younger types !

From your post it would seem, and please feel free to ' flame ' me if wrong, that you are trying several new things all at once - new aircraft, engine, instruments, night flying, pilots ?

I'd formed the general impression that trying one new system at a time, i.e. new engine, new airframe, not both at the same time, is the way to look forward to one's pension ?

I suppose a lot of it depends on how really capable your customer pilots would be if say something like an instrument or two failed at night ?
Double Zero is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 19:05
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,483
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
It is not that easy
it is not supossed to be the Administrator is very hard to satisfy AND does not always know its own laws

PA
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2009, 15:13
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Double Z: There has been approval in the regs for the use of an experimental airplane for flight training. Some have built or bought such and need flight training, maybe type training and maybe Private Pilot training. After Jan 2010 this will go away. What are those who bought/built airplanes to do now? The airplanes can still be used if money does not change hands, but who believes that will be possible? I can see a lot of people trying to do it alone, and the results will be bloody.
There is a place in the reg that allows for a deviation, I assume it means that if application is made, the training can still take place, but approaching the FAA for anything is seen to be putting oneself in the spotlight with no guarantee that the request will be granted. If it is not granted, you can bet that you will be watched to see that you comply, whereas if you just do it and avoid attention you will probably get away with it.
I deal with the FAA every day and get along well with most of the officers there, but even I am leary of asking unless I am sure it will be approved.
So far as the night flying is concerned, or IFR, I am only asking for private use, not commercial, which is illegal anyway. But again, has anyone done it and has it ever been approved, or do people just do it without asking? I see lots of experimental airplanes flying at night and in IFR and I suspect few of them have a written approval. Certainly all the pilots I have asked who do it did not even know what I was talking about.
boofhead is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 20:27
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere nice
Age: 52
Posts: 230
Received 12 Likes on 4 Posts
What about taking friends and family for a "jolly"?

These kind of flights surely aren't allowed in an experimental?
rugmuncher is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 05:12
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sure they are. The only practical restriction is that no money should change hands, except for instructing, and from what I read, this will go away Jan 2010, hence my question.
boofhead is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 09:05
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,955
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Folks,
Separate out "Experimental Amateur Built" from all the other categories in Part 21 Experimental.
Then look for the answer in this narrower category.
The answer will be yes, if it is the owner/builder of the aircraft.
For peace of mind, check with EAA, the Experimental Aircraft Association.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 12:51
  #10 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,210
Received 48 Likes on 24 Posts
I'm out on a bit of a limb here, because it's the US system, and I'm only marginally familiar with it. However, a few thoughts...

Questions: Is the ability to teach a person in an experimental airplane going away in January next year? What is an owner of an experimental airplane supposed to do after that?
Certainly a question for your local FSDO, but in extremis the answer is probably to teach on a certified airplane like everybody else!

Does the para (h) allow for a deviation from that rule?
para (h) sounds like it allows for any deviation that the FAA sees fit to issue.

With regard to night operations, I read in AOPA once that provided the airplane had the right equipment fitted for night or IFR it could fly those situations without specific clearance,
That's far from universally true. If an aircraft is certified to FAR-23, then I believe that this is true. However, an experimental, LSA or VLA airplane isn't and I'd be surprised if you could flight night, or non-VMC (you can always fly IFR whilst VMC!) without specific clearance in any of those. Again however, definitely a question for the FAA.

in fact I know a lot of people who do fly night/IFR and who have the same generic experimental CofA that I do. Should I approach the Feds or just asssume?
If they shouldn't, and the FAA decides to have a crack-down, theirs may not be company you were best keeping.

That said, aside from legalities - why? Where is the sense in flying night/imc in an aeroplane not tested for it, with simplex systems, no navigational backup... You don't need to do it, so again, why?


I do wonder to what extent you are looking to regulations for ultimate guidance rather than searching your aviators soul for good, safe (best?), practices?

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2009, 00:53
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The risks involved are not different for an experimental airplane. In fact many experimentals are way better equipped than a certified airplane and have better performance to boot. Each pilot must be responsible for determining the risks.

I have it on good authority (and if you read the reg closely I think it is correct) that the rule for commercial use of an experimental airplane during flight instruction refers to charging for the airplane, not the instructor. So from what I was told, it will still be OK for an owner of an experimental airplane to pay an instructor to teach him how to fly it, and I assume that would include teaching the owner what he needs to get a Private or Commercial certificate as well. But the owner cannot present his own airplane and charge for the use of that airplane for someone else to learn to fly.

However I am not 100 percent sure, this reg is particularly obtuse.

The relevant part says "No person my operate an experimental aircraft for compensation or hire, except to conduct flight training, in an aircraft which the person conducting the training shall supply, and this will cease on 31 Jan 2010".

I guess the rule for compensation or hire applies to passengers and cargo only, and it prevents someone from getting hold of a fleet of experimental airplanes and setting up a flight school to teach in them, at least after January next year. And if my source is right, that would have been a legal activity up to now. But flight instruction is not restricted, so long as the flight instructor is not being paid to carry passengers or cargo.

I have a source in the FAA and now that I am more famliar with the regulation I will ask him. If he gives me a clear answer I will post it here.
boofhead is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.