TO Lights
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TO Lights
Hello all,
By your SOP, you turn on Landing (TO) Lights when entering the active RWY or ONLY when CLEARED FOR TAKE OFF?
I could not find any regulation about this, so far, I found only an IFALPA recommendation to turn the Landing lights ON only when Cleared for take off.
I would would like to hear from ATC TWR controllers, what they expect to see and from us. I believe it may be more important for the TWR to see us then other acft.
Regards
Ric
By your SOP, you turn on Landing (TO) Lights when entering the active RWY or ONLY when CLEARED FOR TAKE OFF?
I could not find any regulation about this, so far, I found only an IFALPA recommendation to turn the Landing lights ON only when Cleared for take off.
I would would like to hear from ATC TWR controllers, what they expect to see and from us. I believe it may be more important for the TWR to see us then other acft.
Regards
Ric
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I've flown for some opeators which want all the lights on while on the runway, and others who turn on taxi lights entering the runway, but not landing lights. Landing lights are then turned on with the takeoff clearance.
My present duties mean that upon entering the runway environment, especially at night, all lights go off.
My present duties mean that upon entering the runway environment, especially at night, all lights go off.
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All lights selected on when entering (or crossing) the active runway, with the exception of the nose landing light. This is then selected to 'on' when T/O clearance received, and serves as a useful visual reminder (not that this is any substitute for confirming with ATC actual clearances if doubt exists).
Our airline also adopts the same policy when landing, with the nose light remaining off until landing clearance received.
Seems to work most of the time, but I guess it is type dependant.
Our airline also adopts the same policy when landing, with the nose light remaining off until landing clearance received.
Seems to work most of the time, but I guess it is type dependant.
Only half a speed-brake
Certain aircraft manufacturer provides full set of very pretty SOPs in the FCOM. They say, all lights on when entering runway, including the LDG lights and nose mounted TO light.
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On the occasions that I have heard this topic discussed, both in real-life and on the internet, there always seems to be a few folks with the notion that their particular company/aircraft technique is an internationally recognized procedure. Hopefully, the varied answers to this thread will go someway towards convincing such folks that there is no universally recognized 'best-practice' just a variety of different ideas.
Most of my career has been spent operating 2 very different aircraft types for 2 very different outfits. Co-incidentally both operators checklists called for the landing lights to be switched on when cleared to enter the runway. I don't believe that this is intended to act as a signal to ATC or other aircraft, but rather it is the earliest convenient point at which they can be selected prior to the take-off roll. With its experience of low-flying, the military are sold on the idea of aircraft lighting as an aid to birdstrike avoidance and I'm happy to accept this as a valid reason to use the lights near the ground in daylight. I would also suggest that the configurations of landing lights, taxi-lights and turn-off lights on each different aircraft type is too varied for to establish common SOPs that mean anything to external observers.
Most of my career has been spent operating 2 very different aircraft types for 2 very different outfits. Co-incidentally both operators checklists called for the landing lights to be switched on when cleared to enter the runway. I don't believe that this is intended to act as a signal to ATC or other aircraft, but rather it is the earliest convenient point at which they can be selected prior to the take-off roll. With its experience of low-flying, the military are sold on the idea of aircraft lighting as an aid to birdstrike avoidance and I'm happy to accept this as a valid reason to use the lights near the ground in daylight. I would also suggest that the configurations of landing lights, taxi-lights and turn-off lights on each different aircraft type is too varied for to establish common SOPs that mean anything to external observers.
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My company, with the 737-800, has all non-forward facing lights(runway turnoff lights) when on to hold(also strobe lights on if not distracting to other planes at night), at takeoff clearance receipt, all on...with no delay because of heat buildup with Runway turnoff/landing lights in same housing.
The SOP of lights on at takeoff clearance prevented a runway incursion for me. My home field has the WW2 triangle runway layout and ATC often uses the runway next to the terminal for the regional T props and the long runway on the opposite side for jet and GA departures (the GA ramp is on the other side of the airport from the terminal). One day I was taxing out to the long runway in my airplane with a clearnce from ground to cross the intersecting runway. Just as I was approaching the intersection the Dash 8 holding on the crossing runway turned on all its landing lights. I immediately stopped about 10 ft short of the hold line. The Dash was allready rolling when I got a very excited ground controller yelling at me to hold short. Bottom line what would have been a reportable incident was a non event because of the warning of the commencement of the Dash's takeoff roll that I got from the lights on at t/o clearance SOP I knew the airline used. I teach that SOP to all of my students and my experience is at least in North America virtually all of the CAR 705 and Part 121 airlines seem to follow it.
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In the USA they have an Advisory Circular covering this stating to turn On All except the Landing lights when entering a RWY and to turn this lasts to ON until receiving the T/O Clearence.
Wonder if the EU has some guidance on this but in any case it all looks it would be different since the Airbus SOP spells to turn them all On when entering the Runway.
Wonder if the EU has some guidance on this but in any case it all looks it would be different since the Airbus SOP spells to turn them all On when entering the Runway.
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I think Brian has hit the nail on the ehad.
Some - perhaps many airlines now are so proscriptive with SOPs that it is hard for people who haven't been exposed to different companies - some now long-time Captains, to tell if the procedure demanded is a legal requirement or a company policy, just as they will often fall into the mindset that if not told they MUST do something then that something is forbidden. Where did common sense go?
Different companies tend to ask for different procedures, I doubt any are all right or all wrong, most will work just fine, and any sensible company leaves it up to the Captain to decide exactly what to do with his lights. "Landing lights ON" does not necessarily mean "All of them ON", does it? "Taxi light ON" does not necessarily mean "nothing but Taxi light ON"; BALPA's recommendation - afaik a pretty international standard, is to taxi with turn-off lights on too. My company's SOP appears to suggest taxiing in complete darkness if you've turned the taxi light off to come on stand (why, when there is no marshaller?) or want to avoid dazzling the follow-me car. Not very smart, is it?
But then SOPs are guidelines, not rules, aren't they?
Many of us use a sequence of light selections as cues or confirmation of clearances, and if ingrained in a pilot's style are probably best left alone - I always select the last pair of landing lights ON on reciept of landing clearance, so all lights on means we did get clearance. I'll do that at FL150 if cleared to land then. (but why use extendable landing lights in good vis or in daytime? We know they cause drag = fuel burn, sometimes get stuck and are expensive to maintain, and we have been asked to consider not using them. Fixed L lights and turnoff lights look just the same to the buzzard a mile ahead.)
Anyway, do birds really get out of the way when they see lights? Hmm, could be, but I'd like to see the research on that one! If they can't see and hear a hundred tons of metal roaring down on them in broad daylight it doesn't sound very likely to me.
I say again, where did the common sense go?
Some - perhaps many airlines now are so proscriptive with SOPs that it is hard for people who haven't been exposed to different companies - some now long-time Captains, to tell if the procedure demanded is a legal requirement or a company policy, just as they will often fall into the mindset that if not told they MUST do something then that something is forbidden. Where did common sense go?
Different companies tend to ask for different procedures, I doubt any are all right or all wrong, most will work just fine, and any sensible company leaves it up to the Captain to decide exactly what to do with his lights. "Landing lights ON" does not necessarily mean "All of them ON", does it? "Taxi light ON" does not necessarily mean "nothing but Taxi light ON"; BALPA's recommendation - afaik a pretty international standard, is to taxi with turn-off lights on too. My company's SOP appears to suggest taxiing in complete darkness if you've turned the taxi light off to come on stand (why, when there is no marshaller?) or want to avoid dazzling the follow-me car. Not very smart, is it?
But then SOPs are guidelines, not rules, aren't they?
Many of us use a sequence of light selections as cues or confirmation of clearances, and if ingrained in a pilot's style are probably best left alone - I always select the last pair of landing lights ON on reciept of landing clearance, so all lights on means we did get clearance. I'll do that at FL150 if cleared to land then. (but why use extendable landing lights in good vis or in daytime? We know they cause drag = fuel burn, sometimes get stuck and are expensive to maintain, and we have been asked to consider not using them. Fixed L lights and turnoff lights look just the same to the buzzard a mile ahead.)
Anyway, do birds really get out of the way when they see lights? Hmm, could be, but I'd like to see the research on that one! If they can't see and hear a hundred tons of metal roaring down on them in broad daylight it doesn't sound very likely to me.
I say again, where did the common sense go?
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 16th Sep 2009 at 10:48.
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Check the FAA -AIM. I believe it is "advisory" rather than "mandatory". Different airlines will have differing SOP's over the usage of lights for taxi/Take-off. Be careful that changing procedures and checklists does not cause distraction at a vital stage when look-out is important.
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at my company, we turn on turnoff lights when we get taxi clearance. when we get to the holding point takeoff runway, they remain on. when we get takeoff clearance we read takeoff checklist as common, in our checklist there are TAXI LIGHTS OFF, LANDING LIGHTS ON instructions. After take off checklist shutsoff all landing lights including turn offs.
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I believe the TO lights question should be answered in the Expanded Checklist section of your company's SOP's. If not, most operators go from Taxi to the TO setting on receipt of a takeoff and/or landing clearance which also helps as an aide memoire in case the eye drops in the coffee have already taken effect.
