ATR Startup Clearance for H Mode

[FL999]

HI guys. Just another silly question.In the ATR Do you have to ask for startup clearance before starting number 2 in Hotel mode? Everytime I ask myself that question it sounds silly but I cant figure it out. I guess you should but Im not sure considering that most of the time theres quite a bit of time between starting number 2 in Hotel mode and actually starting number 1 and releasing number 2(From what ive experienced as a SLF). Any ATR drivers care to enlighten me?

[No_Speed_Restriction]

As hotel mode is ATR's solution for an APU, the answer is no. Just keep an eye for any ground movement personnel that may be affected/chopped by a prop unlock. Also make sure you adhere to noise regulations at some airport.

[FL999]

Thanks for the info NSR! I appreciate it!!

[FougaMagister]

Correct. As mentioned, the ground crew obviously need to be aware (beacon ON, etc.) It also saves time on pushback if needed: start no.2 in H mode, disconnect and remove GPU, then request push and start; then start No.1 during pushback, then release prop brake.

H mode also means air conditioning, a plus if you are sitting on a roasting (or freezing) apron waiting for pushback clearance...

Cheers

[No_Speed_Restriction]

Its just that damn tail wind limit; if memory serves me correct you need to be aware. make sure you keep someone at all times in the cockpit when hotel mode is running as, after all, it is a running engine.

[FL999]

need to be aware (beacon ON, etc.)

Ah that I didnt know. I know you have to ask them for permission before starting but I didnt know you needed to switch on the Beacon. Reason for that being that I was still outside the plane and boarding when they started number 2, so a beacon basically meant, get the hell out of here and leg it! . COming to think of it it does make sense though, it is after all a running engine as you say.

Its just that damn tail wind limit

Ive never seen an ATR facing the right direction in a gate, at least at my local airport. Whether it just came back from a flight or was just removed from the hangar, they always park it facing the wind. so most of the time the plane's perpendicular to the yellow line. I also recall reading about a crosswind limit for the cargo door. that might be why they face it in the wind as well.That also means you dont need to pushback or get pushed. I suppose where you guys operate its not possible to park that way!!

One more thing...do you guys pushback using reverse sometimes or is it not recommended?

[Tenmen]

Reverse, or power-back if you like, is common on ATR's, at least where I flew them Could be done on either one or both engines. Easy.

[Clandestino]

You don't need startup clearance for hotel mode - provided that airport operator is consent with using no2 with prop brake while the aeroplane is being serviced. Also don't turn on the beacon - it means that startup is imminent and usually causes the ground staff to run away. One rated pilot has to be seated in the cockpit all the time the engine is running in hotel mode - if master warning goes off, CL2 goes to FSO before even asking "What was that?"

We used powerback a lot and I often see green-tailed Lufthansa ATRs power-backing at MUC.

[FougaMagister]

Of course you're right, the beacon is not mandatory since H mode is akin to an APU. In my operation, most ground crew won't do any work anyway if H mode is on due to high noise levels -mind you, some of them don't even wear ear defenders! We hardly ever use H mode on turnaround anyway, we get provided with GPUs at all stations. And we don't get to park into wind, we have to stick to the yellow line!

Power back is very convenient and again saves a lot of hassle with tugs etc. but some operators don't use it - and some airports won't allow it; you know, the kind that overcharge on handling etc.

The cargo door open max wind component is 45kt, so it's usually not an issue.

Cheers

[FL999]

Also don't turn on the beacon - it means that startup is imminent and usually causes the ground staff to run away

Thought so. If I had seen the Beacon on while I was boarding I would start to panic for sure !

The cargo door open max wind component is 45kt, so it's usually not an issue.

I see. Its probably easier to taxi-out when you're oriented that way but i guess at some airports thats a big no no.

we get provided with GPUs at all stations

I see. So i guess they allow you to startup without the GPU at a safe distance. When I watch the ATR from the viewpoint, they start number 2 in H mode, the GPU is disconnected and driven away and that one guy stays in front of the nose with the interphone connected. Then they start the engines, then the guy leaves after both props are spinning and feathered. Then when the guy is clear they change CL to Auto and leave.

I guess procedures change from airline to airline.

[FougaMagister]

That start sequence is correct. If we have a tug, we will usually start no.1 on the push. There are actually several possible engine start sequences available on the ATR, but as you mentioned some operators will only use one method, while others leave it to the crew to decide which one to use depending on circumstances.

ATRs can also do a battery cross-start. (I remember doing just that one day in MXP when handlers weren't on stand, and weren't answering the radio either. Only in Italy...)

Cheers

[TurningFinals]

need to be aware (beacon ON, etc.)

I don't know if this is the same at all airports, but at INV we are not allowed to go near an aircraft with the beacon on unless it is to remove chocks after startup (no pushbacks at INV), never mind letting PAX anywhere near the aircraft.

If we have an ATR in, SOP's are engine 1 shut down, 2 goes into H mode. Beacon off, chocks in place, GPU connected and engine 2 shut down. H mode not on again until turnaround complete and we are about to start.


Start up is H mode started, GPU disconnected, engine 1 started, engine 2 brake released, chocks away, aircraft taxis.

TF.

[FougaMagister]

As No Speed Restriction says, you need to know what the tail-wind component is before starting H mode. Otherwise, you could quickly get a nasty surprise: Master Warning - NAC OVHT. Which could be solved by either:

- releasing the prop brake (of course not an option if ground ops are ongoing)
- shutting down the engine (favourite option, unless NAC OVHT happens during pushback)

It's a trick commonly played on unsuspecting crews by TREs at the sim...

If the ATIS reports a tail-wind component, the start procedure is different:

1/ Request start
2/ Start no.1 engine
3/ Ask ground crew to disconnect GPU
4/ Release prop brake
5/ Request pushback (if needed)
6/ Start no.2 during pushback

Cheers

[747dieseldude]

Basically, you don't need a startup clearance at all...

The general purpose of the startup clearance is to validate and activate your flightplan. If you want to start your engines and burn fuel before you know your fpl is approved, go ahead.

Having said that, there are other considerations:
1. Noise - Some airports forbid having running engines or APUs. Some specify you can start it up 5 minutes before pushback. Check your local procedures.
2. Safety - Having an engine on is a safety issue, and your airline should publish procedures to handle that, beacon, ropes, cones, whatever. Some airports also have their special rules about that.

[Luckystar77]

Can we slightly change the procedure?

Instead of:
"Get H mode started, GPU disconnected, engine 1 started, engine 2 brake released, chocks away, aircraft taxis"
We will:
"Get H mode started, GPU disconnected, engine 2 brake released, engine 1 started, chocks away, aircraft taxis"

Would that make any difference?

[airman13]

I agree with luckystar, unless tail wind component >10 knots, we start left engine, remove gpu, release prop.brake,then we start right engine to avoid nacelle overheat.

[Luckystar77]

My question was if there was a specific reason for starting up ENG 1 before we release prop brake on ENG 2.

[FougaMagister]

Not as far as I know, since the prop brake is released by pressurising the blue hydraulic system via the DC Auxiliary Hydraulic Pump. And that's not dependent on whether an engine is running (and if so, which one).

Bear in mind that unless a (DC) GPU is attached, operation of the Aux Hyd Pump will draw power from the battery (DC bus 2/Ground handling bus).

Czesc!

[White Knight]

All I recall is that we used to use H mode a lot (NO beacon - whoever came up with that nonsense) especially after a winter nightstop in Luxembourg. Bl00dy aeroplane would be freezing cold and that No2 engine heated it beautifully for approx 45-60 mins before ETD. There was no time restriction on H mode - just as someone has pointed out the nacelle overheat might get a little fruity

Great aeroplane the 42 and 72..