Red Stop Bars.
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Red Stop Bars.
I appreciate that the ATC Forum may seem more appropriate but I thought I’d ask the ‘users’ first, rather than ‘suppliers’.
Question is, world-wide - What is your local/regional/national policy on Stop Bars?
If Red – must you never ever cross?
If Red – may you cross with ATC clearance?
There’s a very readable Eurocontrol paper on the subject ‘Runway Safety - Use of Stop Bars 24H’. HERE
Question is, world-wide - What is your local/regional/national policy on Stop Bars?
If Red – must you never ever cross?
If Red – may you cross with ATC clearance?
There’s a very readable Eurocontrol paper on the subject ‘Runway Safety - Use of Stop Bars 24H’. HERE
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If Lights are red, we STOP even if cleared to cross/enter.
Then we inform the controller that lights are red.
We ONLY cross red lights if controller gives us a clear and valid reason and we are happy that it is safe to proceed.
UTF
Then we inform the controller that lights are red.
We ONLY cross red lights if controller gives us a clear and valid reason and we are happy that it is safe to proceed.
UTF
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Thanks.
Am I right in thinking that the only 'valid reason' is a switching malfunction where ATC has selected RED OFF, but they've stayed ON.
We ONLY cross red lights if the controller gives us a clear and valid reason ......
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Am I right in thinking that the only 'valid reason' is a switching malfunction where ATC has selected RED OFF, but they've stayed ON.
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Interesting. A switching malfunction appears to be the only valid reason. 
ICAO Manual for Preventing Runway Incursions.
5. STOP BARS. 5.2 PANS-ATM (Doc 4444) states “7.14.7 Stop bars shall be switched on to indicate that all traffic shall stop and switched off to indicate that traffic may proceed.” As such, a controller should never issue a clearance to cross a stop bar without first switching off the stop bar. The only exception to this should be when contingency measures are required due to unserviceability. An example of a contingency measure is the use of a follow-me vehicle.
ICAO Manual for Preventing Runway Incursions.
5. STOP BARS. 5.2 PANS-ATM (Doc 4444) states “7.14.7 Stop bars shall be switched on to indicate that all traffic shall stop and switched off to indicate that traffic may proceed.” As such, a controller should never issue a clearance to cross a stop bar without first switching off the stop bar. The only exception to this should be when contingency measures are required due to unserviceability. An example of a contingency measure is the use of a follow-me vehicle.
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GLFSTMFIVE, I think plain-plane is saying that ATC requested a Red Stop Bar crossing in order to test a Runway Incursion Alert System. Hence the "with very clear and slowly read instructions...."
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Can only speak for my own airport....Crossing of a red stop-bar is verboten. The only exception is when the bar is unserviceable and cannot be deselected. Then ATC request an OPS vehicle attend and we do a 'Follow Me' across the stop bar. Aircraft are not given permission to cross without the Ops vehicle being present.
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If you are at an airfield where ATC can't or won't switch off the stopbar, make as much an issue as you can.
I would report it through your own airline's reporting system (ASR etc) and out of principle I would sit at the hold until they sent a follow me car to escort me past the red stop bar. Delay or no delay - there is no excuse for this to happen. Either ATCOs switch them on and off when they should or the the airport operator invests in a decent lighting system which allows the stop bars to be switched on and off!
I would report it through your own airline's reporting system (ASR etc) and out of principle I would sit at the hold until they sent a follow me car to escort me past the red stop bar. Delay or no delay - there is no excuse for this to happen. Either ATCOs switch them on and off when they should or the the airport operator invests in a decent lighting system which allows the stop bars to be switched on and off!
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So - it seems that airports which give 'routine' clearance to cross Red Stop Bars are few and far between - and those which do are violating the ICAO requirements, Manual for Preventing Runway Incursions.
Mister Geezer seems to have the right attitude, but how common is this?
Mister Geezer seems to have the right attitude, but how common is this?
I would report it through your own airline's reporting system (ASR etc) and out of principle I would sit at the hold until they sent a follow me car to escort me past the red stop bar.
I wonder why the tower giving a clearance to a "Follow Me" vehicle to cross a stop bar, followed by an aircraft, is safer than the tower giving a clearance to an aircraft to cross a stop bar? 
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Abu Dhabi
The red stop bars are ON for mtce, and have been for a long time...
We passed (I think) 8 stop bars on the taxi from the GA parking to the new runway, which must be located in Dubai, judging by the distance.
Each time we stopped, and asked and were give permission to cross, after the 6th the controller said dont bother to ask in future.
I suppose it is safer than the highways, where the red stop lights are optional as well.
glf
We passed (I think) 8 stop bars on the taxi from the GA parking to the new runway, which must be located in Dubai, judging by the distance.
Each time we stopped, and asked and were give permission to cross, after the 6th the controller said dont bother to ask in future.
I suppose it is safer than the highways, where the red stop lights are optional as well.
glf
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•
While a stopbar malfunction may be a recurring event at some airports, it remains a relatively unusual situation for a pilot to be at a stopbar that cannot be switched off. It would therefore help to have a contingency procedure with identical elements at all airports where stopbars are used, so pilots can be prepared for what will be done to assist them to pass the stopbar.
• From a pilot's perspective an R/T instruction to cross an active stopbar may still appear to be contrary to the ICAO provisions, even if an explanation is provided that there is a stopbar malfunction at the time. Just by looking at the active stopbar, it is difficult for a pilot to tell whether switching off that stopbar is not possible due to a malfunction (i.e. just at that moment) or because it simply is not designed as a switchable stopbar (i.e. permanently).
• The use of a Follow Me vehicle to help an aircraft pass an active stopbar serves as an indication and confirmation to the pilots that the situation is unusual, particularly so if this is also explained via R/T.
• A contingency procedure that uses just R/T phraseology to instruct pilots to cross a stopbar that cannot be switched off is therefore less desirable than a procedure that involves the use of a Follow Me vehicle.
• From a pilot's perspective an R/T instruction to cross an active stopbar may still appear to be contrary to the ICAO provisions, even if an explanation is provided that there is a stopbar malfunction at the time. Just by looking at the active stopbar, it is difficult for a pilot to tell whether switching off that stopbar is not possible due to a malfunction (i.e. just at that moment) or because it simply is not designed as a switchable stopbar (i.e. permanently).
• The use of a Follow Me vehicle to help an aircraft pass an active stopbar serves as an indication and confirmation to the pilots that the situation is unusual, particularly so if this is also explained via R/T.
• A contingency procedure that uses just R/T phraseology to instruct pilots to cross a stopbar that cannot be switched off is therefore less desirable than a procedure that involves the use of a Follow Me vehicle.
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I seem to recal that IFALPA have a 'don't cross a red' initiative at the mo.
Do those airports that won't switch them of do so H24 or just when it's dark?
I agree with a previous post, be bloody minded and refuse the clearence. Yes, I know it comes hard to some of us
Better to be called 'difficult' than 'the deceased'
What we need is a worldwide strategy every airport can sign up to. Calling ICAO, come in ICAO.
Sir George Cayley
Do those airports that won't switch them of do so H24 or just when it's dark?
I agree with a previous post, be bloody minded and refuse the clearence. Yes, I know it comes hard to some of us
Better to be called 'difficult' than 'the deceased'
What we need is a worldwide strategy every airport can sign up to. Calling ICAO, come in ICAO.Sir George Cayley
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Sao Paulo stop bars
I experienced this at Sao Paulo last night. We were cleared on to 09L with the lights off, but before we could begin to move, the red lights came back on. I asked Tower if they could turn off the red lights, and the reply was, "Oh, sorry about that, here you go." The lights went off and we taxied onto the runway.
Like Usedtofly says, if they are red, do not cross them. That would be a bad precedent not just for ATC, but also for us.
For the Kuwait concern, bring perhaps advising IATA's ME/NA group might also help?
Like Usedtofly says, if they are red, do not cross them. That would be a bad precedent not just for ATC, but also for us.
For the Kuwait concern, bring perhaps advising IATA's ME/NA group might also help?
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Unfortunately, at some places they just seem to be too lazy to turn them off, Cairo comes to my mind.
Never cross a lit stop bar no matter what the reason. Do it, and imagine trying to explain the consequences to the courts, authority, families, or the jury in the heavens.
If there's some malfunction of the light system, the airport man in the little truck can run over and pull the plug on the damb things.
Review....
STOP BARS. 5.2 PANS-ATM (Doc 4444) states “7.14.7 Stop bars shall be switched on to indicate that all traffic shall stop and switched off to indicate that traffic may proceed.” As such, a controller should never issue a clearance to cross a stop bar without first switching off the stop bar. The only exception to this should be when contingency measures are required due to unserviceability. An example of a contingency measure is the use of a follow-me vehicle.
