B737 NG landing flare - one engine inoperative
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B737 NG landing flare - one engine inoperative
I've never landed an airplane with rudder trim applied, during a single engine landing. I'd be interested in any tips that might help me during the flare and touchdown.
G'day PG3,
I don't fly the B737 but I do fly the B767 and the engine INOP approach procedure would be pretty much the same.
The approach is flown with rudder applied to counter the asymmetry but in the flare as you close the thrust lever on the live engine the asymmetry goes away and you essentially land with the rudder central unless of course there's a crosswind. When making an asymmetric approach the rudder trim is usually centred at around 1000' HAT, this means that when you centre the rudder as the thrust comes off you are not fighting against already applied trim.
Flare a little less and a little slower due to the higher approach speed but otherwise it's no big deal.
Are you doing a B737 norsement at the moment?
Good luck with it, regards,
BH.
I don't fly the B737 but I do fly the B767 and the engine INOP approach procedure would be pretty much the same.
The approach is flown with rudder applied to counter the asymmetry but in the flare as you close the thrust lever on the live engine the asymmetry goes away and you essentially land with the rudder central unless of course there's a crosswind. When making an asymmetric approach the rudder trim is usually centred at around 1000' HAT, this means that when you centre the rudder as the thrust comes off you are not fighting against already applied trim.
Flare a little less and a little slower due to the higher approach speed but otherwise it's no big deal.
Are you doing a B737 norsement at the moment?
Good luck with it, regards,
BH.
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Hi there BH,
Yes I'm doing a 737 endorsement. I've done two simulators, with an eng out. I centered the trim one time but I've been encouraged to land with the trim in since the go-around,if necessary, becomes easier. But the flare,t/d and rollout, esp in crosswind conditions, become a bit tricky. I'm going to flare a little slower and see what that does. Thanks
Happy landings
PG3
Yes I'm doing a 737 endorsement. I've done two simulators, with an eng out. I centered the trim one time but I've been encouraged to land with the trim in since the go-around,if necessary, becomes easier. But the flare,t/d and rollout, esp in crosswind conditions, become a bit tricky. I'm going to flare a little slower and see what that does. Thanks
Happy landings
PG3
G'day PG3,
It's all a matter of personal preference whether you use rudder trim for the landing or not. Try it a couple of times both ways and see what suits you. Personally I'm a rather large bloke so I don't use rudder trim, but that's just me. Of course every different instructor you fly with will have his own preference but what suits you is best for you.
I notice your profile says you're in the 'left seat', is this a command endorsement you are doing?
Good luck with the rest of the training.
Regards,
BH.
It's all a matter of personal preference whether you use rudder trim for the landing or not. Try it a couple of times both ways and see what suits you. Personally I'm a rather large bloke so I don't use rudder trim, but that's just me. Of course every different instructor you fly with will have his own preference but what suits you is best for you.
I notice your profile says you're in the 'left seat', is this a command endorsement you are doing?
Good luck with the rest of the training.
Regards,
BH.
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G'day BH
Yes I'm doing my first command endorsement. I've just come off a B744. The difference in perspective from the two cockpits is something else I'm getting used to! I was following the tragic AF 330 story. I have done about 4 years of Atlantic crossings,all from North America and the NAT track system took care of avoiding severe weather. Is there nothing similar when flying from South America? They should've had the weather warning anyway, if in case that was what caused the problems.
Regards
PG3
Yes I'm doing my first command endorsement. I've just come off a B744. The difference in perspective from the two cockpits is something else I'm getting used to! I was following the tragic AF 330 story. I have done about 4 years of Atlantic crossings,all from North America and the NAT track system took care of avoiding severe weather. Is there nothing similar when flying from South America? They should've had the weather warning anyway, if in case that was what caused the problems.
Regards
PG3
Well there is a totally different breed of weather systems on the Europe-South-America corridor (organized tracks from EUR-SAM) around the Equator, than on the NAT tracks. Having flown both extensively through the years, NAT tracks are usually a breeze, whereas there are weather deviations on almost every crossing in the South-Atlantic.
As to your questions about rudder trim, when I flew 737s (classics) we were initially trained (by Boeing) to have the PM zero out the trim on short final. Later (my current types are 757/767) this has been changed to keeping some trim in there, 2-3 units probably. It should not mess up your landings.
Incidentally I have done 4 s/e landings on twins, in action. Rudder trim was the least of my worries.
As to your questions about rudder trim, when I flew 737s (classics) we were initially trained (by Boeing) to have the PM zero out the trim on short final. Later (my current types are 757/767) this has been changed to keeping some trim in there, 2-3 units probably. It should not mess up your landings.
Incidentally I have done 4 s/e landings on twins, in action. Rudder trim was the least of my worries.
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I find the easiest way (in the SIM) is to land with a rudder trim and flare slowly at 50 ft RA. This way you avoid floating.
Just my two cents. Good luck with your command.
Just my two cents. Good luck with your command.
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i leave the trim in, 4-5 units....
in the sim anyway it seems that half the approaches end in a missed app, they kind of have to, so in the sim it is less work with the trim in... so why not just get used to that way?
best of luck...
in the sim anyway it seems that half the approaches end in a missed app, they kind of have to, so in the sim it is less work with the trim in... so why not just get used to that way?
best of luck...
G'day PG3,
Like you I did the jump from the B744 to the B767 to do my Command and what a difference that was. The B767 has got so much get up and go it's unbelievable, especially at the weights we normally operate doing domestic flights. It's a lot of fun.
I've been following the Air France story also and unfortunately I can't see much good news coming out of it. With any luck a controlled ditching might have been made and there may be many survivors. I've never operated over the South Atlantic, pretty much everywhere else but not there.
Good luck with the Command training and keep us updated on your progress.
Regards,
BH.
Like you I did the jump from the B744 to the B767 to do my Command and what a difference that was. The B767 has got so much get up and go it's unbelievable, especially at the weights we normally operate doing domestic flights. It's a lot of fun.
I've been following the Air France story also and unfortunately I can't see much good news coming out of it. With any luck a controlled ditching might have been made and there may be many survivors. I've never operated over the South Atlantic, pretty much everywhere else but not there.
Good luck with the Command training and keep us updated on your progress.
Regards,
BH.
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Hello oceancrosser,
Well obviously you have had a fair bit of practical experience with s/e. It's definitely good to know that landing with the trim in, shouldn't cause any worries. I have to figure out what works with me.
thanks though.
PG3
Well obviously you have had a fair bit of practical experience with s/e. It's definitely good to know that landing with the trim in, shouldn't cause any worries. I have to figure out what works with me.
thanks though.
PG3
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PG3.
Have done 3 sim checks on the 73 (classic granted but classic and ng are the same beast essentially). twice i've left the rudder trim in completely (about 12 units ish on full t/o power and about 5 ish on the approach) and once i've had the PM wind off the trim in the last 500' or so on the approach and carried the load on my leg.
I actually found it easier to control the a/c with the trim wound off and leaving the a/p in until 50' (if landing and not doing a manual s/e approach obviously) or adding the rudder at the same rate as the thrust lever if doing the g/a. It just gives me the greater feel of control.
When i left the trim on, the a/c was all over the place and my tracking was absolutely horrendous and i had no real feel what the a/c was doing especially as i had to put in rudder the wrong way when reducing thrust and sometimes put in the wrong rudder input (i'm a simpleton and still rely heavily on the dead leg dead engine principle).
I'd go for getting PM to take out the trim, take it on your leg for 1-2 mins and you just have just that little more feel about what's happening.
But it's personal preferance and nothing more.
Have done 3 sim checks on the 73 (classic granted but classic and ng are the same beast essentially). twice i've left the rudder trim in completely (about 12 units ish on full t/o power and about 5 ish on the approach) and once i've had the PM wind off the trim in the last 500' or so on the approach and carried the load on my leg.
I actually found it easier to control the a/c with the trim wound off and leaving the a/p in until 50' (if landing and not doing a manual s/e approach obviously) or adding the rudder at the same rate as the thrust lever if doing the g/a. It just gives me the greater feel of control.
When i left the trim on, the a/c was all over the place and my tracking was absolutely horrendous and i had no real feel what the a/c was doing especially as i had to put in rudder the wrong way when reducing thrust and sometimes put in the wrong rudder input (i'm a simpleton and still rely heavily on the dead leg dead engine principle).
I'd go for getting PM to take out the trim, take it on your leg for 1-2 mins and you just have just that little more feel about what's happening.
But it's personal preferance and nothing more.
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My company operates classics and I've never been advised to remove the trim before landing. IMHO you should keep all axis in trim as it makes an accurate approach easier to fly. Provided you close the thust lever slowly on landing and anticipate the yaw, it's very easy to control.
Having tried it both ways in several sorts of Boeing (no hard "rule" in our Company) I have to say I find it easier to leave the trim where it is. If you cancel it above DA then you are a) fighting an out-of-trim aircraft, while possibly still in IMC (good recipe for a wobbly leg and diverging from the approach path) and b) going to have to wind it all back in plus some if you have to g/a - quite likely, as others have pointed out.
As the power comes off in the flare, just apply enough rudder to keep yourself lined up with the runway and make sure the wings stay level. As you have a centreline to track out of the window, the required rudder input is obvious, actually instinctive I'd say. Just keep going down the middle and your feet will do the work for you!
At the end of the day both methods seem to produce results. I'd go for the one that gives you the lowest workload, therefore the highest spare capacity in case any more of these dratted decisions have to be made!
As the power comes off in the flare, just apply enough rudder to keep yourself lined up with the runway and make sure the wings stay level. As you have a centreline to track out of the window, the required rudder input is obvious, actually instinctive I'd say. Just keep going down the middle and your feet will do the work for you!
At the end of the day both methods seem to produce results. I'd go for the one that gives you the lowest workload, therefore the highest spare capacity in case any more of these dratted decisions have to be made!
Doing base training in the real aeroplane - as opposed to the simulator - I have the rudder trim progressively removed to the neutral position at about 400ft. The rudder loads are easy enough to hold for the short time remaining and it makes tracking the centreline during the flare easier. In the event of a go-around the loads are no worse than what they were when the initial failure was introduced at or close to V1. Most pilots can hold the rudder loads for a few minutes.
Simulator technique does not always perfectly translate to the real machine. Especially older sims sometimes require a bit of special technique to get good results.
Simulator technique does not always perfectly translate to the real machine. Especially older sims sometimes require a bit of special technique to get good results.
Pilotgirl, I hope you're discussing this with your sim instructor in addition to taking advice from this forum. They are their to teach you how to fly the aeroplane after all, and there is no loss of face in admitting difficulty with something.
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Hey folks.
Thanks for the advice! I've discussed a few things with my instructor and it has helped me. After 4 sim sessions, I'm being pretty consistent with my Eng Out landings. I needed to change my seating amongst other things. I now keep the trim in during landing. As far as the required rudder trim after throttling back goes, well, it was sort of instinctive. Have had a fair amount of missed approaches too so that was easier on my leg
Cheers.
Thanks for the advice! I've discussed a few things with my instructor and it has helped me. After 4 sim sessions, I'm being pretty consistent with my Eng Out landings. I needed to change my seating amongst other things. I now keep the trim in during landing. As far as the required rudder trim after throttling back goes, well, it was sort of instinctive. Have had a fair amount of missed approaches too so that was easier on my leg
Cheers.
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You should land the plane without trim.Surprised that the other way is taught as its messy.Trim required for a GA wont be the same as that for an approach so leaving it in is poor technique.As someone said,you should "Feel" the aircraft in your hands/feet at such a critical moment(touchdown).Mind you,these days,they teach you to keep the AP in from 500' to roll-out so it wouldnt surprise me.
