NDBs
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Netherlands
They are useless.
In Europe and America VOR coverage is available.
In Africa, they are either U/S of the ADF is pointing to the nearest rain shower.
Besides, we would rather select an RNAV approach. (This is GPS+FMS)
Actually following those needles requires HDG SEL + V/S in the B777.
In Europe and America VOR coverage is available.
In Africa, they are either U/S of the ADF is pointing to the nearest rain shower.
Besides, we would rather select an RNAV approach. (This is GPS+FMS)
Actually following those needles requires HDG SEL + V/S in the B777.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: UK
Mods. I deliberatly didn't put it in here (or ATC) because i wanted pilots views. How many pilots come into ground ops on a regular basis? certainly not the mil pilots that I explicitly included. can it be moved back please?
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: In your head.
I use them if they are available, RMI needles, whether I'm doing anything from a GPS approach to a visual.
I struggle to understand why you wouldn't want to display a servicable navaid, it's just another level of situational awareness isn't it?
I struggle to understand why you wouldn't want to display a servicable navaid, it's just another level of situational awareness isn't it?
Joined: May 2001
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Well I use the airfield ones on a daily basis.
Great for SA, working out when to bring the speed back, when to turn in on a visual and its on the otherside of the aircraft and the sun is in your eyes.
Wouldn't miss the enroute ones but definitely would the middle of the field NDB's. The ones on a 4 mile final are a bit of a waste of space these days though.
Great for SA, working out when to bring the speed back, when to turn in on a visual and its on the otherside of the aircraft and the sun is in your eyes.
Wouldn't miss the enroute ones but definitely would the middle of the field NDB's. The ones on a 4 mile final are a bit of a waste of space these days though.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 649
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From: EU
It's true that on an EFIS equiped aircraft you don't use them as often anymore, unless the ILS is of the air and suddenly you get n VOR?DME approach. Then suddenly you have to go back to raw data on one side (as a lot of manufacturers/airlines prescribe) and when you use the old ROSE display, a locator beacon is the ideal tool for closure rate to the radial.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
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From: Arizona USA
I struggle to understand why you wouldn't want to display a servicable navaid, it's just another level of situational awareness isn't it?
Look at the very nasty Cali Colombia American Airlines accident some years ago.
These prats were cleared directly toward an airfield beacon, dialed up something totally opposite in their FMS, and promply flew right into a hill, killing everyone.
The captain had 12,000 hours...twelve thousand friggin' hours, and he couldn't be bothered to dial up the airfield beacon and proceed accordingly.
More than likely....didn't know how.
About time these turkeys were locked in a sim (without their multi-thousand dollar salaries) until they find out.
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,221
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From: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Hello!
Well, I would say it's third in line for the ideal tools for closure rate, the ideal tool being the flight director 
... the second best being the GPS/INS/whatever-position of the NBD and only then the NDB itself.
When instructing, I am still required to teach NDB approches. There are not many left now in our vicinity (none at our homebase). One of them is so poorly calibrated, that on most approaches at minimum you will find yourself right overhead a church spire that is about a mile left of centreline. I have reported this to the authorities more than once already, but they don't seem to care, obviously apart from us trainers nobody uses them anyway.
If you want my vote: Get rid of these things NOW. The sooner, the better. They are the most unsafe means of navigation, because they are both imprecise and difficult to steer by.
Greetings, Max
It's true that on an EFIS equiped aircraft you don't use them as often anymore, unless the ILS is of the air and suddenly you get n VOR?DME approach. Then suddenly you have to go back to raw data on one side (as a lot of manufacturers/airlines prescribe) and when you use the old ROSE display, a locator beacon is the ideal tool for closure rate to the radial.
... the second best being the GPS/INS/whatever-position of the NBD and only then the NDB itself.When instructing, I am still required to teach NDB approches. There are not many left now in our vicinity (none at our homebase). One of them is so poorly calibrated, that on most approaches at minimum you will find yourself right overhead a church spire that is about a mile left of centreline. I have reported this to the authorities more than once already, but they don't seem to care, obviously apart from us trainers nobody uses them anyway.
If you want my vote: Get rid of these things NOW. The sooner, the better. They are the most unsafe means of navigation, because they are both imprecise and difficult to steer by.
Greetings, Max
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Arizona USA
One of them is so poorly calibrated, that on most approaches at minimum you will find yourself right overhead a church spire that is about a mile left of centreline.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
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From: FL410
Well I tune them in on a more than daily basis in a 737NG. It confirms what the FMS is doing and makes me feel better about my SA. Don't use them if you don't want to, but many of us don't have a problem with their existence!
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
In our aircraft (corporate SPIFR helicopter) the NDB is always tuned to the most appropriate beacon, IFR or VFR, and it's used accordingly. The equipment does have its well known limitations but it is still of use.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 666
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From: Betwixt and between
Agree with Chesty Morgan,
After a my HSI failed using my IR skill test I never leave a needle untuned.
Use them all the time enroute and terminal area unless we are doing a VOR approach. When enroute with the FMS auto tuning it is nice to see the RDMI saying you are where the FMS says you are and if they don't then a quick nav check and look for reasons why. In my experience, when in range during the day their accuracy is acceptable. I also often monitor the ADF on approach, they do wave around a bit but I can see in comparison to the ILS or VOR that they are sufficient for a safe approach.
After a my HSI failed using my IR skill test I never leave a needle untuned.
Use them all the time enroute and terminal area unless we are doing a VOR approach. When enroute with the FMS auto tuning it is nice to see the RDMI saying you are where the FMS says you are and if they don't then a quick nav check and look for reasons why. In my experience, when in range during the day their accuracy is acceptable. I also often monitor the ADF on approach, they do wave around a bit but I can see in comparison to the ILS or VOR that they are sufficient for a safe approach.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,247
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From: Here and there
I have done twice as many VOR approaches as ILSs, and I've done twice as many NDBs as VORs. So yeah, I use it a bit, it's the only ground based aid at the airport I was based at for 4 years. That's Australia for ya! I actually find them to be quite comforting to fly, stooging outbound, or maybe around the DME arc, making small allowances for the coastal refraction down final, and coming out the bottom on slope and on centreline! (Or at least with minimal maneuvering required 
)
)
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Hello!
I know, Sir. But I didn't want to write a whole page of text book here, if all I wanted to say could be described with one simple word. And there are calibration flights for NDB approaches too, so the word "calibrated" is not too far off anyway. The signal seems to be distorted by ground objects in this case, as the described error shows with all our training aircraft.
Greetings, Max
BTW: Did I insult you in any way, so that you need to ridicule me?
411A: NDB's are not 'calibrated' in the sense that a VOR might be, however the signal can be distorted by ground objects...or...a poorly functioning receiver/indicator in the airplane.
Greetings, Max
BTW: Did I insult you in any way, so that you need to ridicule me?
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Europe
NDB's are still part of a large number of SIDs and STARs, so there is no question, they are still useful. You have no choice. Having said that, 411a, what beacon do you use when you are cleared for a GNSS approach?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 588
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From: uk
NDB's
I find that pilots who know how to use them properly like them, it is only those who have never fully mastered the art who rubbish them. Try doing a raw data non efis approach into Vnukova without one or preferably two of them. If you do try, at the very least the Air Trafficers will have a good laugh at your expense.
My advice is learn how to use them and one day you may be glad you did
My advice is learn how to use them and one day you may be glad you did
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,339
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From: My house
I have always been of the opinion and it was stressed to us during training, know your equipment, its there to help you out.
As long as you understand the kit and its limitations, exercise some caution when prevailing conditions are not suitable, then they are another important and useful tool for us.
I always use the NDB's for SA whether VMC or IMC, as people have said they are useful in approaches for giving you an indication of where you are in the pattern and in thier own right, if a little wobbly sometimes.
Nick
As long as you understand the kit and its limitations, exercise some caution when prevailing conditions are not suitable, then they are another important and useful tool for us.
I always use the NDB's for SA whether VMC or IMC, as people have said they are useful in approaches for giving you an indication of where you are in the pattern and in thier own right, if a little wobbly sometimes.
Nick
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 181
Likes: 3
From: Australia at the moment
We use them lots in Australia/PNG/Pacific/NZ /Indonesia etc. As said by others previously great tool for SA. Great for accurately flying DME arcs, useful for instrument approaches, Locators are low powered NDB's are they not? The RMI on most can be selected to either ADF or RMI hence 2 tools in one me thinks.
What if GPS is for some reason out of commision ie during a War or North Korea manage to take them out with a nasty spy satellite (a bit far fetched I suppose). Maybe some sort of terrorist attack etc. Who knows 911 was afterall a wee bit of a shock to the Yanks was it not; anything is possible.
Just a perspective from down under.
Cheers
What if GPS is for some reason out of commision ie during a War or North Korea manage to take them out with a nasty spy satellite (a bit far fetched I suppose). Maybe some sort of terrorist attack etc. Who knows 911 was afterall a wee bit of a shock to the Yanks was it not; anything is possible.
Just a perspective from down under.
Cheers
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: various places .....
.. and, if you really have your back against the wall and the Lady Luck SA fairy has deserted you .. the ADF can use the local AM radio broadcast station .. perhaps even getting you out of the tight spot you let yourself get into ..