n-1 after V1
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
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From: The Netherlands
n-1 after V1
Hi, bit of a silly question. But how is it called when there is a n-1 after V1 and you have to continue the take off.
I am a student pilot and we had this discussion this morning, and even our instrumentation teacher couldn't answer this question.
thank you.
I am a student pilot and we had this discussion this morning, and even our instrumentation teacher couldn't answer this question.
thank you.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
From: Australia
maarten4, there are no silly questions, omly silly answers. I hope that this is not one of them
I'm a little unsure of your question "how is it called as to whether you are looking for the term for an engine failure at/above V1, or what does the support (non-flying pilot) call?
The terminology is a bit loose, but it is typically referred to as an engine failure ON Takeoff (as opposed to the more typical single engined aircraft AFATO, engine failure AFTER Takeoff).
A bit pedantic, but the subtle difference in terminology lies in the fact that for an engine failure at or just above V1, there is often still quite a bit of the Takeoff remaining, i.e. acceleration to Vr, Rotation, Initial climb to the (typical) 35 ft screen height at the end of the runway, with acceleration to V2 accomplished in this final phase.
Calls made by the Pilot Monitoring (PM), or PNF not so far back, vary greatly according to the airline's SOPs. Some call it, some don't call it at all, the latter because the Pilot Flying is ACUTELY aware that he/she has suffered an engine failure.
I tend to prefer the initial "silent" approach. During the Takeoff roll prior to V1 the PF is "keyed up" to hear the word "failure" and would reject the takeoff without any attempt at trouble-shooting upon hearing the word "failure" (stated very assertively). NUMEROUS Simulator exercises have shown that although the PF may well have heard the V1 call, many (far too many) are still "keyed up" to hear the word "failure", and attempt to reject above V1 if "engine failure" is called soon after V1.
Our experience has shown that it is best to let the PF continue the Takeoff, and AFTER the gear is up and the aircraft is climbing away at V2, the PM would announce in a much lower tone of voice his/her first analysis with a statement such as "Right engine has failed, no apparent damage", etc.
Subsequent procedures will be of the nature of the PF confirming (or denying) the PM's analysis, and all non-normal procedures thereafter executed after confirmation by both crew members.
Other operator's SOPs WILL vary, that's how we do it. I recognise that for a 3 engined aircraft, failure of the centre engine would warrant an "engine failure" call, as there are no directional control problems experienced by the PF, and the call would confirm to the PF that the performance degradation was not caused by other factors, e.g. wind shear.
Standing by to hear a great many SOPs (all of which are the ONLY SOPs.
Regards,
Old Smokey
I'm a little unsure of your question "how is it called as to whether you are looking for the term for an engine failure at/above V1, or what does the support (non-flying pilot) call?
The terminology is a bit loose, but it is typically referred to as an engine failure ON Takeoff (as opposed to the more typical single engined aircraft AFATO, engine failure AFTER Takeoff).
A bit pedantic, but the subtle difference in terminology lies in the fact that for an engine failure at or just above V1, there is often still quite a bit of the Takeoff remaining, i.e. acceleration to Vr, Rotation, Initial climb to the (typical) 35 ft screen height at the end of the runway, with acceleration to V2 accomplished in this final phase.
Calls made by the Pilot Monitoring (PM), or PNF not so far back, vary greatly according to the airline's SOPs. Some call it, some don't call it at all, the latter because the Pilot Flying is ACUTELY aware that he/she has suffered an engine failure.
I tend to prefer the initial "silent" approach. During the Takeoff roll prior to V1 the PF is "keyed up" to hear the word "failure" and would reject the takeoff without any attempt at trouble-shooting upon hearing the word "failure" (stated very assertively). NUMEROUS Simulator exercises have shown that although the PF may well have heard the V1 call, many (far too many) are still "keyed up" to hear the word "failure", and attempt to reject above V1 if "engine failure" is called soon after V1.
Our experience has shown that it is best to let the PF continue the Takeoff, and AFTER the gear is up and the aircraft is climbing away at V2, the PM would announce in a much lower tone of voice his/her first analysis with a statement such as "Right engine has failed, no apparent damage", etc.
Subsequent procedures will be of the nature of the PF confirming (or denying) the PM's analysis, and all non-normal procedures thereafter executed after confirmation by both crew members.
Other operator's SOPs WILL vary, that's how we do it. I recognise that for a 3 engined aircraft, failure of the centre engine would warrant an "engine failure" call, as there are no directional control problems experienced by the PF, and the call would confirm to the PF that the performance degradation was not caused by other factors, e.g. wind shear.
Standing by to hear a great many SOPs (all of which are the ONLY SOPs.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
Likes: 1
From: france
V1 & N-1
hello every one,
"N-1" is just an old french arithmetic terminology to indicate an engine failure : N=nombre(total number of) de moteurs (engines) "-"=moins(minus) 1(one)moteur (engine). eg a twin engine aircraft with an engine failure = 2-1=1 engine remaining, easy isn't ?
if it happens after V1, please, continue take off.
bm
"N-1" is just an old french arithmetic terminology to indicate an engine failure : N=nombre(total number of) de moteurs (engines) "-"=moins(minus) 1(one)moteur (engine). eg a twin engine aircraft with an engine failure = 2-1=1 engine remaining, easy isn't ?
if it happens after V1, please, continue take off.
bm
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 85
From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
The answer to "How is it called" for a lot of companies is, it isn't. The V1 call means the decision to continue the takeoff has been made, regardless of any failure subsequently.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 234
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
In my outfit -
Prior to V1, the PNF calls out the problem in the clearest way he can...
"Engine Problem"
"Aft Cargo Door"
"Cargo Fire"
and the Captain will call "STOP" or "GO".
After V1, PNF still calls the problem eg:
"Engine Problem"
PF need not say anything... just continues the takeoff.
Old Smokey certainly has some valid points about saying nothing. The PF is ready to hear "V1... ROTATE" in that order. In some incidents they have realised that when the PF speaks after V1, the PF sometimes rotates, even if he has said Engine Failure and it is well below V1. Shouldn't happen, but when everyone is keyed up and adrenalin running, it does.
On the other hand, the aircraft I fly uses a different rotate rate and initial pitch attitude for an engine failure. It is nice to know why there are control issues, rather than guessing if it is an engine problem or losing a number of tyres.
We all just follow SOP's and try not to hit anything
Prior to V1, the PNF calls out the problem in the clearest way he can...
"Engine Problem"
"Aft Cargo Door"
"Cargo Fire"
and the Captain will call "STOP" or "GO".
After V1, PNF still calls the problem eg:
"Engine Problem"
PF need not say anything... just continues the takeoff.
Old Smokey certainly has some valid points about saying nothing. The PF is ready to hear "V1... ROTATE" in that order. In some incidents they have realised that when the PF speaks after V1, the PF sometimes rotates, even if he has said Engine Failure and it is well below V1. Shouldn't happen, but when everyone is keyed up and adrenalin running, it does.
On the other hand, the aircraft I fly uses a different rotate rate and initial pitch attitude for an engine failure. It is nice to know why there are control issues, rather than guessing if it is an engine problem or losing a number of tyres.
We all just follow SOP's and try not to hit anything
