Is 'the impossible turn' possible?
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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IO540,
That is exactly what I was looking for, I speak Mathematics better than English!
Thank you to everyone who's replied, I hope you're all finding it as interesting as I am. Please keep them coming - I'll give a longer reply tomorrow but I need my bed now, just finished a five day stint!
See you all tomorrow and thanks
That is exactly what I was looking for, I speak Mathematics better than English!
Thank you to everyone who's replied, I hope you're all finding it as interesting as I am. Please keep them coming - I'll give a longer reply tomorrow but I need my bed now, just finished a five day stint!
See you all tomorrow and thanks
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Who says you have to land back on the runway you just left anyway?
Alignment was mentioned earlier and it is a red herring. Often a cross runway will be just as suitable
Alignment was mentioned earlier and it is a red herring. Often a cross runway will be just as suitable
An airport has many advantages for crashing on including a minimum response time for emergency services
I think that in his "The Proficient Pilot" books (not sure which one, but I will check and edit it in tomorrow), Barry Schiff dedicates a chapter of one book to this very maneuver. If I remember, his thinking is the same as others (including myself from experience), tight turn (remember stall speed will increase), remember wind direction and turn upwind.
Last point - I spent the rest of the day trying to convince the student that this is something he should never attempt. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who is out of practice or low hours.
There's three recent fatal accidents due to failed turnbacks.
In a glider with 30:1 glide ratio, turnbacks from 300' are something that students get to do before being sent solo. There are glider schools that do simulated rope breaks from 200' in low perfpormance gliders.
If you're one of these people who limit bank to 15 degrees, ain't no way.
Once I've turned crosswind, I might think about it, especially if there's a crosswind runway available, but I'd be a lot more inclined to land upwind.
In a glider with 30:1 glide ratio, turnbacks from 300' are something that students get to do before being sent solo. There are glider schools that do simulated rope breaks from 200' in low perfpormance gliders.
If you're one of these people who limit bank to 15 degrees, ain't no way.
Once I've turned crosswind, I might think about it, especially if there's a crosswind runway available, but I'd be a lot more inclined to land upwind.
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Once I've turned crosswind, I might think about it, especially if there's a crosswind runway available, but I'd be a lot more inclined to land upwind.
If the choice is between turning back downwind and (maybe) crashing on a well equipped airfield, I will take being close to the airfield any day in preference to eating pine cones straight off the trees.
My Schiff book detailing this is in the office so shall collect it tomorrow to post the reference, but basically the 180 is both theoretically and practically possible, dependant on a number of circumstances which will only be aparrent to the pilot on the day. For a low hours pilot, the experience to make the best judgement call may not be available for decission making in the available time (although your decission making does become mighty quick in these circumstances), and for these pilots, land ahead HAS to be the best option.
It would be good to get more input on this thread from pilots who have suffered REAL EFATOs in SE AC. I noticed on another thread that things are descending into FS2004 on this topic
Edit: The Schiff book which dedicates a chapter to the turnback is The Proficient Pilot Volume 1, Chapter 34. The Schiff books are all well worth a read.
Last edited by Romeo India Xray; 25th Feb 2009 at 08:08.
In at least two of the recent three fatal turnbacks, the pilots were highly experienced. At least one was an instructor.
However one should note that the three a/c were homebuilts: Kitfox, Falco (possibly factory built) and the latest an owner design.
It takes some gumption to put a spamcan down into poor landing terrain; even more when it's your baby that you built yourself over several years.
Perhaps for homebuilts there's even more reason to find an airport with long runways and/or landable terrain off the runways.
However one should note that the three a/c were homebuilts: Kitfox, Falco (possibly factory built) and the latest an owner design.
It takes some gumption to put a spamcan down into poor landing terrain; even more when it's your baby that you built yourself over several years.
Perhaps for homebuilts there's even more reason to find an airport with long runways and/or landable terrain off the runways.
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I believe that for ASEPTA approval (single engine turbine IFR charter ops) in Australia turn backs have to be demonstated. I understand that the procedure is a 45o angle of bank turn on the dials, and there is minimum height that it can be considered from. I think the reason for doing the turn on the dials is that pilots execute the maneuver more accurately without the distraction of the ground swinging around.
It's not impossible at all BUT (there's always a but)........
Need:
to have practised it
to get nose down and speed up
to turn into xwind if poss
to have pre planned/pre briefd
to have clear parameters eg "above x' i will turn back l/r"
to know that achieving the runway is good but not vital - flat green airfield is good
to know that fields ahead are probably better
to only do it for real if there is no other option
On the Bulldog never served at an airfield where it was necessary. Camp at Woodvale was interesting. Lee on Solent - the 90deg turn for the beach better than the water. For the students, keep it simple eg "once yr half way round the upwind turn you may continue the turn to the a/f"
too many people have been hurt in turnbacks, inc a good mate at woodvale some yrs back.
just my thoughts - hope it helps the debate
Need:
to have practised it
to get nose down and speed up
to turn into xwind if poss
to have pre planned/pre briefd
to have clear parameters eg "above x' i will turn back l/r"
to know that achieving the runway is good but not vital - flat green airfield is good
to know that fields ahead are probably better
to only do it for real if there is no other option
On the Bulldog never served at an airfield where it was necessary. Camp at Woodvale was interesting. Lee on Solent - the 90deg turn for the beach better than the water. For the students, keep it simple eg "once yr half way round the upwind turn you may continue the turn to the a/f"
too many people have been hurt in turnbacks, inc a good mate at woodvale some yrs back.
just my thoughts - hope it helps the debate
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Regarding the turnback, I have nothing to add, I'm not someone who should be trying it (in my opinion)...However I'm bemused by the obsession with runways.
IF one has to turnback, AND it's a bit marginal, surely you stick it anywhere you like on the damn airfield? Who needs a runway - anywhere's probably better than the average field, and beats the hell out of dying trying to align some tarmac - even if you have to bounce across some taxiways, demolish some cones etc.
IF one has to turnback, AND it's a bit marginal, surely you stick it anywhere you like on the damn airfield? Who needs a runway - anywhere's probably better than the average field, and beats the hell out of dying trying to align some tarmac - even if you have to bounce across some taxiways, demolish some cones etc.
We'd practice turnbacks in the RAAF quite often in the PC9. Students weren't allowed as it does take a little practice and they can get a little busy. Forget doing it in the CT4!!...it drops like a brick and you'll spud in, so just pick a paddock ahead 
You have to be very aware of the wind vs height vs direction of turn etc etc.
You have to be very aware of the wind vs height vs direction of turn etc etc.
