NDB approach aid monitoring
NDB approach aid monitoring
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Just be glad there aren't any more Range Approaches any more. [At least I don't know of any.] Then you not only had the station ident but the constant 'A' or 'N' or on course SOLID tone ALL the time! I think that's when I started losing my hearing! But I guess I'm dating myself now.
Last edited by DC-ATE; 16th Feb 2009 at 12:19.
Psychophysiological entity
It was not just the ident that was significant, the 'appropriate pilot' 
would also monitor the quality of the received transmission. A lot could be gleaned from the difference between a crisp signal and a mushy one.
Kids of today! Don't know they're born. We dreamed of NDBs while we were doing VDF approaches.
EDIT to say, it's strange thinking back, just how comforting that repetitive Morse was while descending for several crucial minutes into inky blackness. A sort of connection with home.
would also monitor the quality of the received transmission. A lot could be gleaned from the difference between a crisp signal and a mushy one.Kids of today! Don't know they're born. We dreamed of NDBs while we were doing VDF approaches.
EDIT to say, it's strange thinking back, just how comforting that repetitive Morse was while descending for several crucial minutes into inky blackness. A sort of connection with home.
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Proper identification
Correct - identify the station - NDB, VOR or ILS is most important.
The ADF is monitored throughout an NDB approach for reasons stated above.
VOR/ILS/DME requires initial identification, thereafter, no need to monitor.
If they fail, a flag will appear.
xxx
One thing is - I used to train pilots to this procedure.
PF to PNF command should be i.e. "tune and identify the 24L ILS" -
That should be the wording during your approach briefing.
Your mistake as PF might be "set 113.1" and... the proper frequency might be 111.3.
A notorious "killer" in everyday operations and a bust... for a check flight.
xxx
Happy contrails
The ADF is monitored throughout an NDB approach for reasons stated above.
VOR/ILS/DME requires initial identification, thereafter, no need to monitor.
If they fail, a flag will appear.
xxx
One thing is - I used to train pilots to this procedure.
PF to PNF command should be i.e. "tune and identify the 24L ILS" -
That should be the wording during your approach briefing.
Your mistake as PF might be "set 113.1" and... the proper frequency might be 111.3.
A notorious "killer" in everyday operations and a bust... for a check flight.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Luxury!
I remember having to follow bonfires at night across the plains. Radio navigational aids, bah!
Remind me to tell you about the times I had to spin through the clouds at night to regain ground reference as our mail planes lacked instrumentation.
Just kidding. Loose Rivets, that was beautiful and poetic. I can hear it now.
I remember having to follow bonfires at night across the plains. Radio navigational aids, bah!
Remind me to tell you about the times I had to spin through the clouds at night to regain ground reference as our mail planes lacked instrumentation.
Just kidding. Loose Rivets, that was beautiful and poetic. I can hear it now.
Psychophysiological entity
I was pals with a Col. Carl Crane in the 70s.
Handbook of Texas Online - CRANE, CARL JOSEPH
He'd once tumbled out of the clouds with a Senator's son in the rear seat of his bi-plane, getting upright only when he saw a factory chimney he recognized.
From that time on he promoted instrument flying in one form or another...ending up giving lectures at the Randolph AFB advanced instrument flying school in SanAntonio Tx. Towards the end, it was mostly reminiscing of course.
He hooded pigeons to see what they would do when thrown out of aircraft, and did blind landings with a noise horn and a stethoscope to find the ground. The fact is, he did it time and time again, but the field had to be open grass, as there was no means of aligning with a runway.
I spent some time flying a piece of prototype kit that was one of his patents. It was barometric, but referenced itself at the middle marker. Endless blind landings without a hitch.
He flew until he was 79, when he suffered a stroke.
Handbook of Texas Online - CRANE, CARL JOSEPH
He'd once tumbled out of the clouds with a Senator's son in the rear seat of his bi-plane, getting upright only when he saw a factory chimney he recognized.
From that time on he promoted instrument flying in one form or another...ending up giving lectures at the Randolph AFB advanced instrument flying school in SanAntonio Tx. Towards the end, it was mostly reminiscing of course.
He hooded pigeons to see what they would do when thrown out of aircraft, and did blind landings with a noise horn and a stethoscope to find the ground. The fact is, he did it time and time again, but the field had to be open grass, as there was no means of aligning with a runway.
I spent some time flying a piece of prototype kit that was one of his patents. It was barometric, but referenced itself at the middle marker. Endless blind landings without a hitch.
He flew until he was 79, when he suffered a stroke.
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And nowadays (for the last 20 to 30 years) the avionics identify the station automaticly and display it on a screen. No need to listen to it anymore (and yes, you miss the distinction between crips and mushy). And modern avionics fly the approach without direct reference to the NDB which is just used for monitoring what that piece of automatics is doing.
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I have always wondered why they have to use morse codes when a voice identifier saying the name of the station would have been far less ambiguous, more efficient and less distracting for the pilot.
Just like the beepback facility in some of those CTAFS in Australia.
Just like the beepback facility in some of those CTAFS in Australia.
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CW Continuous Wave
Morse code ident instead of voice can be accomplished by CW signal.
Voice ident receivers requires, say AM modulation, which might be failed.
I remember ADF units with a selector having CW for reception.
xxx
Happy contrails (with a lot of "static"...!)
Voice ident receivers requires, say AM modulation, which might be failed.
I remember ADF units with a selector having CW for reception.
xxx
Happy contrails (with a lot of "static"...!)
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IDENT
BELARG
I agree 100% with your point. I bet the families of the G3 going to pick Bush Snr wished the very experienced crews had idented the ILS as they might have noticed the VOR was still tuned. They probably would not have crashed a few miles short of the runway.
On check rides I ask the crew what morse letters they have "just identified" for the approach. 80% of the time they have not got a clue, it is just a jumble of dots and dashes and they think that constitutes identifying the aid. Difficult to fail a guy who has flown beautifully but I sure as hell give them a b......ing at the de-brief.
It would help if authorities made the VOR and ILS idents on the field TOTALLY different. Not "ABC" for the VOR and "IABC" for the ILS!!
I agree 100% with your point. I bet the families of the G3 going to pick Bush Snr wished the very experienced crews had idented the ILS as they might have noticed the VOR was still tuned. They probably would not have crashed a few miles short of the runway.
On check rides I ask the crew what morse letters they have "just identified" for the approach. 80% of the time they have not got a clue, it is just a jumble of dots and dashes and they think that constitutes identifying the aid. Difficult to fail a guy who has flown beautifully but I sure as hell give them a b......ing at the de-brief.
It would help if authorities made the VOR and ILS idents on the field TOTALLY different. Not "ABC" for the VOR and "IABC" for the ILS!!
Voice modulation isn't used, because of the bandwidth requirement. Voice range frequencies for radio purposes start at 20 hertz and extend to 2500 hertz. The, so called, high fidelity range extends to 20,000 hertz but most of the important voice energy required for communications is contained in the region under 3000 hertz. Transmitting voice over the carrier therefore requires a higher bandwidth than CW transmission, and as the frequency range allocated for ADFs is limited, transmitting voice would limit the number of ADFs within any given area.
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Is it still a requirement to learn, and be tested on morse as I was?
For the more youthful Ppruners I dare to say that it is hardly necessary nowadays - Jepps have the morse idents printed alonside the station, or otherwise our new fangled TV screens display the idents ( VOR and ILS) automatically - and even tune the damn things in for us without prompting!
I'm just grateful that my hearing is holding up quite well, as reading Jepps or watching TV screens prevents me with more difficuty than remembering the morse I learnt in 19XX.
Absolute necessity though when flying any approach that takes one below MSA. Once reluctantly had to fail a check ride when poor guy flew perfect approach while listening to TST. Neither did he read the NOTAMS which would have told him not to use the facility.
For the more youthful Ppruners I dare to say that it is hardly necessary nowadays - Jepps have the morse idents printed alonside the station, or otherwise our new fangled TV screens display the idents ( VOR and ILS) automatically - and even tune the damn things in for us without prompting!
I'm just grateful that my hearing is holding up quite well, as reading Jepps or watching TV screens prevents me with more difficuty than remembering the morse I learnt in 19XX.
Absolute necessity though when flying any approach that takes one below MSA. Once reluctantly had to fail a check ride when poor guy flew perfect approach while listening to TST. Neither did he read the NOTAMS which would have told him not to use the facility.
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Back when the NDB approach was more common, I would have pilots in the sim identify the aid, and many would leave the ident on through the approach, in order to detect a failure. Every time I would "fail" the NDB, none of them picked it up. Losing an ident is a passive method of indicating a failure, and even in those days it needed an active indication (failure flag, light, buzzer etc) to alert a person to a failure. So it is a good idea, but in practice I found it to be useless.
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boofhead -
xxx
Listen to the ident was a long learned practice by flight engineers.
Their ears are better than our pilot's ears. Their imporant duty is beep beep...!
And it tells you how superior a crew of three is.
Had the luck to fly my entire career with such a crowd in the cockpit.
It takes one to be PF and the other two for playing cards.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Listen to the ident was a long learned practice by flight engineers.
Their ears are better than our pilot's ears. Their imporant duty is beep beep...!
And it tells you how superior a crew of three is.
Had the luck to fly my entire career with such a crowd in the cockpit.
It takes one to be PF and the other two for playing cards.
xxx
Happy contrails
Psychophysiological entity
Every time I would "fail" the NDB, none of them picked it up. Losing an ident is a passive method of indicating a failure,
Used to disable the ILS and see if they could pull something out of the bag. Mostly okay till 15 years ago, now I'm not so sure that young chaps can improvise all that well. they're just a bright, but fearful of not following SOPs, so don't act instinctively.
Once, my call to "Just check the GPS against the *** VOR/DME" (The 'Scottish' radar mask was not tallying with our kit.)
Loooooooongest dumb silence - with eyes focused nowhere relevant. Then, "I suppose I'll have to get one of those protractery things." Oh, My!
Off topic, but I once cut the power to the autopilot on a twin turbo-prop when the young F/O was PF. No pax I hasten to add. Sat back and waited...and waited. The darn aircraft flew for TWENTY MINUETS before the PF tried to make a course correction and found out. I gave him full marks for trimming.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by Denti
And nowadays (for the last 20 to 30 years) the avionics identify the station automaticly and display it on a screen.
Thank the Lord for GPS/INS.......'Old fashioned' Airmanship - nah - the systems look after that................don't need it any more.
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Isn't it procedure in your outfit to identify the old fashioned way if the automatics (for whatever reason) do not? Might be that im just still used to it as it was standard to allways identify even on LNAV approaches in our old 737 classics. Mind you, im just a young FO (not even 9 years on a jet) but that was still standard training for us.
On the NG however GPS/LNAV/IAN is primary means of navigation for non precision approaches and it is hardly possible to identify that correctly, still love to know that my old fashioned backup NDB/VOR is identified just in case.
On the NG however GPS/LNAV/IAN is primary means of navigation for non precision approaches and it is hardly possible to identify that correctly, still love to know that my old fashioned backup NDB/VOR is identified just in case.