Pilots over 60 flying together?
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Pilots over 60 flying together?
Reading the last page of the October/November balpa Log, there is an article about two pilots over 60 not being allowed to fly together under JAA rules?
I was surprised to read this as I was unaware of any restriction in the UK in this area. Is this actually a rule or am I incorrect?
I was surprised to read this as I was unaware of any restriction in the UK in this area. Is this actually a rule or am I incorrect?
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Couple of years ago, I ferried a 747-200 for "desert-retirement" to Mojave.
We pilots were both over 60... the flight engineer was a hair over 65.
Incredible how senile crewmembers are permitted to be, by ICAO and FAA..
That is "outside" airline operations, such as ferry flights.
xxx
The flight engineer hearing-aid was wired to the hot battery bus.
My heart pacemaker was on the essential bus.
Other pilot tapped his white cane to find his way to the flight deck.
But the Jeppesen charts we had were in the Braille edition.
xxx
Happy contrails
We pilots were both over 60... the flight engineer was a hair over 65.
Incredible how senile crewmembers are permitted to be, by ICAO and FAA..
That is "outside" airline operations, such as ferry flights.
xxx
The flight engineer hearing-aid was wired to the hot battery bus.
My heart pacemaker was on the essential bus.
Other pilot tapped his white cane to find his way to the flight deck.
But the Jeppesen charts we had were in the Braille edition.
xxx
Happy contrails
Last edited by BelArgUSA; 21st Oct 2008 at 20:47. Reason: spelling
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It may interest a few folks to realise that a few countries are considering...70.
Yup, true.
In these cases, both pilots heart pacemakers are directly wired to the hot battery bus...just for good measure.
A nurse stands by for the Flight Engineer...
Yup, true.
In these cases, both pilots heart pacemakers are directly wired to the hot battery bus...just for good measure.
A nurse stands by for the Flight Engineer...
The statistical probability of two over-60's pilots becoming simultaneously incapacitated ( OK, within an hour or so ) is within the realms of the unlikely 10 X -14 probabilities used to predict catastrophic failure during a CAT 3 landing. We are still checked every 6 months and most of us who are still flying keep ourselves fitter than most 30 year olds. Not to mention that we don't get so stressed out, we've seen it before.
I see no logical reason to prevent 2 over 60's flying together, we jump through the same hoops to prove our flying ability as a 20 year old. Medical statistics do not prove that we are a bigger risk, so it is basically down to 'ageism'. I believe that this is now illegal, at least within the EU. Some people are surprised that we can use a computer!
I now only work because I enjoy what I do. My airline needs me, my licence and my experience. When they grow past that I will move on. I love my profession and it might take a missile to get me down from my place in the sky. I suspect that the ultimate ceiling at 65 will do it before that happens......
I see no logical reason to prevent 2 over 60's flying together, we jump through the same hoops to prove our flying ability as a 20 year old. Medical statistics do not prove that we are a bigger risk, so it is basically down to 'ageism'. I believe that this is now illegal, at least within the EU. Some people are surprised that we can use a computer!
I now only work because I enjoy what I do. My airline needs me, my licence and my experience. When they grow past that I will move on. I love my profession and it might take a missile to get me down from my place in the sky. I suspect that the ultimate ceiling at 65 will do it before that happens......
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Aged Crew
As a now retired 68 year old F/E I think the nurse on standby for the F/E mentioned by 411A would not be there to give medical treatment, but to assess his 'capabilities' post flight!!! Seriously, a good mate has just retired at age 67 + 9 months, not because he could not meet any medical or operational requirement, but rather because his company has pensioned off their B727F's.
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Bloody frustrating. At age 24 in Australia with 2000 hours on four engine bombers I was told by Ansett Airlines I was too old to join Ansett as a first officer. At age 27 I applied again with more hours and was told the upper age was now 26. Too old again. Reached age 60 flying 737's and was told too old now so bugger off on 60th birthday. Reached 67 and saw age limit go up to 65. Curses - foiled again. Now I see consideration of pilots going to 70 and I am bloody 76. I wish time would stop still for a few years and the next pilot retirement age might catch up with me...
I was at an airshow and the 76 year Sikorsky chopper pilot seem to have absolute no trouble putting her through her paces---now when it come to chopper I know all the blah blah blah--LTE/ dead mans curve/ground resonance---------
---with airplanes the aerodynamics background helped tremendously and my CFI was just a facilitator---I began as an airplane pilot from the zeroth hour TO--to landing including radio--I taught myself to fly [airplanes]---period--I know others---- who've done the same---but from a pilot's viewpoint choppers to me are
so As far as age---it' seem like in all practical reality age is a number--BTW: the Oldest pilot ever was flying at 103---so let'em fly and learn from them as they've survived a quite intensive Natural selection process
PA
---with airplanes the aerodynamics background helped tremendously and my CFI was just a facilitator---I began as an airplane pilot from the zeroth hour TO--to landing including radio--I taught myself to fly [airplanes]---period--I know others---- who've done the same---but from a pilot's viewpoint choppers to me are
so As far as age---it' seem like in all practical reality age is a number--BTW: the Oldest pilot ever was flying at 103---so let'em fly and learn from them as they've survived a quite intensive Natural selection processPA
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I have a friend who is old enough to be my father yet young enough to be a good friend.
He is 76 and this year alone completed 32 ferries with aircraft from the States to the UK or Back.
Most of the ferries in light twins or ropey old singles. I keep telling him that one day he will end up as a hole in the sea but he doesnt care.
Both his parents ended up demented in their 80s and he would rather do what he loves doing with a risk than going their way.
He has a greater enthusiasm and love of life than most half his age.
So if you pass the medical and someone says NO I think you should shout PREJUDICE AND SUE.
Pace
He is 76 and this year alone completed 32 ferries with aircraft from the States to the UK or Back.
Most of the ferries in light twins or ropey old singles. I keep telling him that one day he will end up as a hole in the sea but he doesnt care.
Both his parents ended up demented in their 80s and he would rather do what he loves doing with a risk than going their way.
He has a greater enthusiasm and love of life than most half his age.
So if you pass the medical and someone says NO I think you should shout PREJUDICE AND SUE.
Pace
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I think there are other things out there. Retire, fly for fun at the local grass strip buy a sail boat, restore a car or built an ultralight out of a kit.....
There are other things in life beside flying 100 tons of metal from A to B and then sleep in a hotel just to get back the next day.
Make room so cadets can make F/O, F/O can make captains, captains can make instructors. I guess you were all cadets one day too.
You can`t stop the time.
brgds
LC
There are other things in life beside flying 100 tons of metal from A to B and then sleep in a hotel just to get back the next day.
Make room so cadets can make F/O, F/O can make captains, captains can make instructors. I guess you were all cadets one day too.
You can`t stop the time.
brgds
LC
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Lostcomm - We have every right to fly for as long as we are physically, legally and competently able - so will you have one day.
Don't join that bunch of silly youngsters who can't see past the end of their own nose but expect everyone above them to move out of their way, they have no Right of Passage and we have no obligation to retire earlier than we need simply to facilitate their upward movement.
Don't join that bunch of silly youngsters who can't see past the end of their own nose but expect everyone above them to move out of their way, they have no Right of Passage and we have no obligation to retire earlier than we need simply to facilitate their upward movement.
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I do not want to stop pilots over 60 from flying, however, as part of the extention to 65 for RPT flying, certain states imposed a restriction that 2 pilots over the age of 60 couldn't fly together.
I think this is a perfectly reasonable restriction to place; certainly until some more study is done to assess any enhanced risk of inflight incapacitation. It isn't prohibiting anyone from operating, just placing some (most likely temporary) restrictions.
Of note is that the only country that has actually done significant studies on risks associated with older pilots so far was the most notable one opposing the extention.
777Fly, Your airline may need your experience. But wouldn't it be better for the future of aviation if you were passing that knowledge on to someone under 60 sitting next to you? For me, the upside of the rule is that some of us younger pilots get the opportunity to fly with the +60's on their more favoured routes, so they can pass their knowledge onto us, rather than the 65 year old normally sitting next to them
I think this is a perfectly reasonable restriction to place; certainly until some more study is done to assess any enhanced risk of inflight incapacitation. It isn't prohibiting anyone from operating, just placing some (most likely temporary) restrictions.
Of note is that the only country that has actually done significant studies on risks associated with older pilots so far was the most notable one opposing the extention.
777Fly, Your airline may need your experience. But wouldn't it be better for the future of aviation if you were passing that knowledge on to someone under 60 sitting next to you? For me, the upside of the rule is that some of us younger pilots get the opportunity to fly with the +60's on their more favoured routes, so they can pass their knowledge onto us, rather than the 65 year old normally sitting next to them
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Old fart opinion...
Where the 65 age is applied, the "two pilots" over 60 rule is observed.
Of course the majority of you now speak "two pilots"...
I still fly airplanes with a crew of "2 pilots and 1 flight engineer".
Personally, I would waive that rule for crews of 3 airmen.
Then you have the case of augmented (long range crews) with 3 pilots.
Such as on the 747-400s, or the A-340.
For them, just make the rule applicable for takeoff and landing.
xxx
In my airline, we have some additional limitation for "old farts".
Transition to another type aircraft must be completed before age 55.
Application of the saying "you don't teach old dogs new tricks"...
At my age, I could still learn another plane, with steam powered gages.
Being senile, I would call "Fire engine nš 4 on a... 737NG...!
But what in the hell, I don't like watching TV and play with joysticks.
xxx
Fully agreed about being an old fart and teaching the young kids.
That is what I did for most of my career, since I became captain.
Young guys love to fly with me, not for my corny jokes only.
You want to be PF in the LHS...? We have no rule against that.
Captain's discretion, if captain is a check-pilot.
xxx
I agree, delayed retirement also delays your upgrade to that paycheck.
But guys... a later retirement permits airline hiring of more mature pilots.
For those of you who were not lucky to be hired in the RHS at age 22.
Instead of a limit of, say 35 for hire, 40 or 45 can be considered.
So, do not be too negative about me occupying "your" seat.
xxx
Now get your foot OFF my oxygen mask hose...!
My last flight will be in 4 weeks, then I retire and get my gold Rolex.
And I will visit Pprune and rant once or twice a week about "the old days".
And the real airplanes such as the 747-200s.
xxx
Happy contrails
Of course the majority of you now speak "two pilots"...
I still fly airplanes with a crew of "2 pilots and 1 flight engineer".
Personally, I would waive that rule for crews of 3 airmen.
Then you have the case of augmented (long range crews) with 3 pilots.
Such as on the 747-400s, or the A-340.
For them, just make the rule applicable for takeoff and landing.
xxx
In my airline, we have some additional limitation for "old farts".
Transition to another type aircraft must be completed before age 55.
Application of the saying "you don't teach old dogs new tricks"...
At my age, I could still learn another plane, with steam powered gages.
Being senile, I would call "Fire engine nš 4 on a... 737NG...!
But what in the hell, I don't like watching TV and play with joysticks.
xxx
Fully agreed about being an old fart and teaching the young kids.
That is what I did for most of my career, since I became captain.
Young guys love to fly with me, not for my corny jokes only.
You want to be PF in the LHS...? We have no rule against that.
Captain's discretion, if captain is a check-pilot.
xxx
I agree, delayed retirement also delays your upgrade to that paycheck.
But guys... a later retirement permits airline hiring of more mature pilots.
For those of you who were not lucky to be hired in the RHS at age 22.
Instead of a limit of, say 35 for hire, 40 or 45 can be considered.
So, do not be too negative about me occupying "your" seat.
xxx
Now get your foot OFF my oxygen mask hose...!
My last flight will be in 4 weeks, then I retire and get my gold Rolex.
And I will visit Pprune and rant once or twice a week about "the old days".
And the real airplanes such as the 747-200s.
xxx
Happy contrails
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"Of note is that the only country that has actually done significant studies on risks associated with older pilots so far was the most notable one opposing the extension"
I don't think the UK CAA have done extensive studies into older pilots but several AMEs in the UK have been studying the subject from the medical point of view for twenty or thirty years and reached the conclusion that the period between sixty and sixty five is not high risk.
I don't think the UK CAA have done extensive studies into older pilots but several AMEs in the UK have been studying the subject from the medical point of view for twenty or thirty years and reached the conclusion that the period between sixty and sixty five is not high risk.