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Automatics versus flying skills - Are some pilots scared to fly by hand?

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Automatics versus flying skills - Are some pilots scared to fly by hand?

Old 24th Oct 2008, 13:45
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Tee Emm -
xxx
The "rejected takeoff" you quote from my lines is from a simulator exercise...
I would never reject at V1 minus 5 on takeoff in a real airplane...!
I should maybe have said V1 minus 10... not that critical in a simulator...
xxx
As to tyres bursts, yes, you are correct... but -
Read the Nationair DC8-61 accident report in Jeddah in 1991.
They got one tyre burst on takeoff, then a fire,
They attempted a return, and crashed 500 metres short of the runway.
The fire apparently burned through the floor of the wheel well.
Recalling that accident, I have second thoughts about retracting wheels on fire.
xxx

Happy contrails
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Old 25th Oct 2008, 07:34
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As to tyres bursts, yes, you are correct... but -
Read the Nationair DC8-61 accident report in Jeddah in 1991.
They got one tyre burst on takeoff, then a fire,
They attempted a return, and crashed 500 metres short of the runway
I agree that was terrible accident but if I recall the crew were not aware of tyre(s) shredding during the take off run until shortly after lift off. Certainly the over-all incidence of tyre problems that have been the cause of aborts are significantly greater than the classic engine failure V1 abort situation. Of course that statement is from my limited access to accident reports whereas there must be hundreds of serious incidents the average pilot will never hear of.

One that sticks in my mind is the Spantax (?) DC10 at Madrid(?) that had a tyre blow-out near lift off and aborted. The aircraft over-ran and caught fire with many dead.
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Old 25th Oct 2008, 07:59
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Tee Emm -
xxx
The Spantax DC10-30 accident you mention was AGP, in the 1980s.
There were 3 sister-ships for these DC10-30CFs - ONA airplanes.
The first was lost at JFK, birds in engine on T/O
Everyone got out. They were ONA crewmembers proceeding to JED for Haj season contract.
Second was lost, same year, also Haj with ONA, landing at IST.
And the third you mention was when leased to Spantax...
xxx

No happy contrails for these three planes
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Old 25th Oct 2008, 20:24
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Favorite topic.
Agree with:
i)Manual flying raw data should be done not just in CAVOK
ii)Fly through the FD's
iii)Never go heads down and try and set up a magenta line if you're given a last minute clearance below TEN
iv)Disregard any SOP that discourages raw data manual flying FD AT off.
v)Always have a contingency plan in your mind in case of FMC failure.Know where you're going and dont just sit looking at the pretty colors on the TV screen.
vi)Use the automation most of the time.Just keep your hand in so that you can revert to manual flight with conventional HSI at any time without hesitation or trepidation.
vii)If youre ever lucky enough to get an instructor like Mshamba had,thank your lucky stars and praise the Lord.We always remember our initial training..this moulds us as pilots for the rest of our careers.
viii)The best pilots are those who are equally happy with everything ON or everything OFF.

Disagree with:
i)Asking if you can take it manually.Lets assume we're all grown-ups and you're not going to do this when tired or overloaded.Otherwise,announce it,and do it.This asking "if its okay" is CRM malarkey.
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Old 25th Oct 2008, 22:19
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In my opinion, if I was in the RHS and the Captain announced that he was disconnecting the FD to have a go at flying by hand my only response would be 'let me know when it's my go!'.

Clearly the majority of training has to be focused on SOP's as I would imagine 98% of sectors wouldn't offer any opportunity that would force seat of the pants flying however ignoring the 2% is foolhardy in my opinion. I personally wouldn't be happy with myself if I had any doubt in my abilities to bring the plane back to ground (in one piece obviously) if the computers failed. As a PAX you just have to hope that the people in the pointy end feel the same way. Such is life though, just one big risk!
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Old 26th Oct 2008, 00:34
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This asking "if its okay" is CRM malarkey.
Well said...and certainly true.
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Old 26th Oct 2008, 17:01
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Personaly I can't see hiring any pilot that can't hand fly and navigate the aircraft without all the goodies. Secondly, as this thread moved to V1 aborts...there still seems to be this idea that flying a bad aircraft is better then just staying on the ground and stopping it. If you have the numbers...your golden...and many times you have runway to spare...unless, you specificaly chose some form of reduced thrust, your overgross, ect ect...
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Old 29th Oct 2008, 21:46
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I would never reject at V1 minus 5 on takeoff in a real airplane...!

BelArgUsa---many times especially nowadays-- you don't know which limitation you are up against--climb gradient - obstacle - ASDA/EMDA---so it would be very dangerous for someone not in possesion of the exact performance facts-
with just a maximum weight allowance for the RWY--so an accelerate-Go at V1 - 5 could be disasterous--for the uninformed - I know, you know but perhaps others can't possibly be allowed to make such a decision--because they really DON'T know---of course you have some that want to stop at V1+5 --I think that particular person--- never really could have adjusted their seat height with the reference eye position indicator because their head is in their behind

They got one tyre burst on takeoff, then a fire,
They attempted a return, and crashed 500 metres short of the runway.
The fire apparently burned through the floor of the wheel well.
Recalling that accident, I have second thoughts about retracting wheels on fire.
xxx

I understand how destructive a tire burst can be but on OTOH it could endanger the second segment [if at all limiting] as the gear retraction is assumed to have taken place within the first segment---but I worry about the same thing
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