How much is your minimum fuel at destination?
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How much is your minimum fuel at destination?
For wide body long-haul fleet, recently with high cost of fuel, my airline policy is to cut budget by carrying as little fuel as possible. That brings to 30min of final reserve plus alternate fuel. Most of the time the alternate airport situates only 10-20 mile away. So upon landing we will get about 50 minutes of fuel left. Is this normal for you people? And for Australia destinations with most airports far away from others, we are considering planning without alternate airport but with extra fuel and good wx conditions.
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What airplane, what routes? Redispatch or not?
I can only hope that your Captains will closely monitor the fuell planning, weather, and anticipated traffic...
In our 747 fleet, we plan on landing at the alternate with no less than 7.0 Tonnes, which is 1.5 tonnes more than the Boeing- and FAA-directed limitation of
The 7.0 gives us a MAXIMUM of 2 go-arounds at the alternate.
We also plan on landing with 10.5 Tonnes at the destination, if fuel to alternate is not more restrictive, which realistically gives us 1 hour until flameout.
I have recently landed twice at 5.5 after delays (both at JFK; once in clear weather, but with extended low-altitude vectoring due to traffic).
I can only hope that your Captains will closely monitor the fuell planning, weather, and anticipated traffic...
In our 747 fleet, we plan on landing at the alternate with no less than 7.0 Tonnes, which is 1.5 tonnes more than the Boeing- and FAA-directed limitation of
MINIMUM FUEL FOR LANDING
No flight should ever plan to land with less than 5,500 kgs.
No flight should ever plan to land with less than 5,500 kgs.
We also plan on landing with 10.5 Tonnes at the destination, if fuel to alternate is not more restrictive, which realistically gives us 1 hour until flameout.
I have recently landed twice at 5.5 after delays (both at JFK; once in clear weather, but with extended low-altitude vectoring due to traffic).
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Greetings,
we have two Alternates, technical usualy close to the destination, when weather is fin and no notams then we select it. Commercial alternate usualy much further aways fri=om the destination we pic it p we weather, delays. notams etc... exist.
in any case we cater for delays if its a known problem at destination (LHR, FRA, MNL,...)( around 20 minutes) and if enroute the fuel drops below reserve we land and refuel, no questions asked
we have two Alternates, technical usualy close to the destination, when weather is fin and no notams then we select it. Commercial alternate usualy much further aways fri=om the destination we pic it p we weather, delays. notams etc... exist.
in any case we cater for delays if its a known problem at destination (LHR, FRA, MNL,...)( around 20 minutes) and if enroute the fuel drops below reserve we land and refuel, no questions asked
Landing with 5500Kgs (Roughly 1400 Kgs per main tank!) is an out and out Mayday in a 747 because you are out of ideas/options/alternates and, of course, Fuel!!
Don't do it without declaring an emergency (unlike the 707 into JFK that ran out of fuel while calmly chatting to ATC about 'short cuts' - everyone died - of course).
Obviously, the present crisis concentrates the mind but it should never be acceptable to carry less fuel because it's more expensive to buy it. If you need it - put it on. If you don't have a good reason- don't take extra. 'Twas ever thus wasn't it??
Don't do it without declaring an emergency (unlike the 707 into JFK that ran out of fuel while calmly chatting to ATC about 'short cuts' - everyone died - of course).
Obviously, the present crisis concentrates the mind but it should never be acceptable to carry less fuel because it's more expensive to buy it. If you need it - put it on. If you don't have a good reason- don't take extra. 'Twas ever thus wasn't it??
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We just got a note we should plan to have at least 1900kgs remaining fuel to avoid having to do the low fuel check list, 737NG (classics 900kg). Ours are not modified and therefore we have the ETOPS low fuel warning, changing that costs money and we rather carry the fuel. Apart from that we can land with down to final reserve fuel if we can use commitment to stay.
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Right now we seem to be landing most of the time with about 40,000 lbs on board (747).
, or 2 hours fuel. We typically land with about 10-11 tonnes unless we're tankering for some reason (like Lagos, for example).I'm interested to try to understand the thinking behind that fuel amount; is it company policy, price related, or is it loaded as a comfort factor?
We work on about 4.5 tonnes reserve (30 minutes fuel) + div + statistical contingency, and would shout 'mayday' if we know we will land with less than reserve, and 'pan' if we think we may.
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As all of you know to land without declare emergency fuel we need final reserve at least. On my acft about 2 tons.
Planning with decision point procedure and 2 altn or std fpl and single alternate.
In flight, approaching decision point, manage the altn (if needed) in order to respect the minimum required fuel over the decision point. If impossible to respect the required fuel due to various reason (wx, atc, etc.) divert an refuel.
Til now never happened.
On approach manage altn as above and according the different scenario (reason for any delay, rwys on destn apt, wx, etc.).
Usually land with remaining fuel in a range from 3.5 tons (worst situation) to 5 tons after flights 9 to 14 hrs long.
Planning with decision point procedure and 2 altn or std fpl and single alternate.
In flight, approaching decision point, manage the altn (if needed) in order to respect the minimum required fuel over the decision point. If impossible to respect the required fuel due to various reason (wx, atc, etc.) divert an refuel.
Til now never happened.
On approach manage altn as above and according the different scenario (reason for any delay, rwys on destn apt, wx, etc.).
Usually land with remaining fuel in a range from 3.5 tons (worst situation) to 5 tons after flights 9 to 14 hrs long.
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How much is your minimum fuel at destination?
UK (and elsewhere?) is clear - 30mins holding @ 1500'.
May land with less = Pan... will land with less = Mayday.
The variables of how you might get to that point are down to various company and personal policies, and if the point is pressed, will bring out all the usual arguments and finger pointing
NoD
May land with less = Pan... will land with less = Mayday.
The variables of how you might get to that point are down to various company and personal policies, and if the point is pressed, will bring out all the usual arguments and finger pointing
NoD
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Is that for PLANNING purposes, or is there a specific CAA rule that says that is the OPERATIONAL minimum?
The variables of how you might get to that point are down to various company and personal policies
NoD
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For a simple Atlantic crossing, we need enough fuel for the trip, plus ten percent of the total fuel burn for the Class II portion (the Atlantic portion, and any time when Class II is our primary nav), plus fuel to the alternate, plus thirty minutes holding at 1,500'.
Simply arriving at the destination with only 30 minutes of fuel at the destination is insufficient and not in compliance with the regulation under which we operate.
Captain's discretionary fuel, which used to be five thousand pounds, has been taken away. If we want more than what's flight planned, then we have to justify it. We plan on three thousand burn for the taxi (which is easily eaten up waiting for departure out of JFK or Newark).
Considering that arriving at one's destination and going missed can burn up ten thousand pounds in the act, having forty thousand on arrival isn't really all that much to play with, considering one might need to go missed, go to an alternate and fly an approach, to say nothing of any holding that might need to take place.
I don't think in terms of Kg, but 40,000 lbs really isn't a lot of fuel in the airplane. If you consider that after a full fuel jettison, 28,000 lbs plus change is left at the standpipes, that's not a big margin above everything that's dumpable in an emergency...it's just not that much fuel. It may be an hour and a half at altitude (figure twenty five thousand pounds in cruise at altitude), it's not nearly that amount of time at lower altitudes.
I'm looking at a flight release from a few months ago, between Luxembourg and Lagos, which shows us as having 219,000 lbs takeoff fuel, with an estimated fuel burn of 170,000 lbs. That's a 49,000 lb difference. That includes nearly twenty thousand to go the 41 minutes to the alternate, and 14,000 for holding, plus a calculated 15,000 that's strictly reserve fuel. So...while we're landing at the destination with 50,000 lbs of fuel if all goes according to plan in that case, it's really not that much...considering alternates and options.
Most of the time presently we're seeing about 40 left when we arrive, and that's fine by me. If it's been a ten hour oceanic leg and the alternates are few and far between, and we've been dancing from one ETP alternate to another, then having extra fuel when we do arrive is a big plus. It's a lot at altitude, but it's not much when you're going missed and seeking other options.
Simply arriving at the destination with only 30 minutes of fuel at the destination is insufficient and not in compliance with the regulation under which we operate.
Captain's discretionary fuel, which used to be five thousand pounds, has been taken away. If we want more than what's flight planned, then we have to justify it. We plan on three thousand burn for the taxi (which is easily eaten up waiting for departure out of JFK or Newark).
Considering that arriving at one's destination and going missed can burn up ten thousand pounds in the act, having forty thousand on arrival isn't really all that much to play with, considering one might need to go missed, go to an alternate and fly an approach, to say nothing of any holding that might need to take place.
I don't think in terms of Kg, but 40,000 lbs really isn't a lot of fuel in the airplane. If you consider that after a full fuel jettison, 28,000 lbs plus change is left at the standpipes, that's not a big margin above everything that's dumpable in an emergency...it's just not that much fuel. It may be an hour and a half at altitude (figure twenty five thousand pounds in cruise at altitude), it's not nearly that amount of time at lower altitudes.
I'm looking at a flight release from a few months ago, between Luxembourg and Lagos, which shows us as having 219,000 lbs takeoff fuel, with an estimated fuel burn of 170,000 lbs. That's a 49,000 lb difference. That includes nearly twenty thousand to go the 41 minutes to the alternate, and 14,000 for holding, plus a calculated 15,000 that's strictly reserve fuel. So...while we're landing at the destination with 50,000 lbs of fuel if all goes according to plan in that case, it's really not that much...considering alternates and options.
Most of the time presently we're seeing about 40 left when we arrive, and that's fine by me. If it's been a ten hour oceanic leg and the alternates are few and far between, and we've been dancing from one ETP alternate to another, then having extra fuel when we do arrive is a big plus. It's a lot at altitude, but it's not much when you're going missed and seeking other options.
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Oddly enough, the company that I work for has no stated minimum fuel for landing.
Strictly left up to the Commander.
The usual remaining in tanks?
Eight tons.
Type, L1011.
Strictly left up to the Commander.
The usual remaining in tanks?
Eight tons.
Type, L1011.
In this Asian outfit its 30 minutes reserve plus alternate fuel. All rounded up with some recommended extra such that we are never planned to land with less than 1 hour at destination.
We also carry full 5% contingency (except ULH, when its a slightly reduced figure but still considerably more than Nigel).
In 12 years with this outfit I have never had to use In Flight Reduction of Fuel Required (ie 'bin the alternate').
Additionally,I've never been carpetted for taking more than the plan either.
We also carry full 5% contingency (except ULH, when its a slightly reduced figure but still considerably more than Nigel).
In 12 years with this outfit I have never had to use In Flight Reduction of Fuel Required (ie 'bin the alternate').
Additionally,I've never been carpetted for taking more than the plan either.