A330/B777. Which is a better A/C ?
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Swiss doesn't do it anymore. There have been a lot of small airlines that used to do it (incl. Lufthansa), but from a certain size it doesn't bring so many benefits anymore.
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Flown both will say this.
FMC better on bus
Electronic Checklist / Abnoramals better on 777
Handling ( especially in gusty and crosswind conditions 777 is better)
Daily opps , airbus is less busy. but abnormals bus is way busier and more complicated.
Seat is far far superior on the bus , 777 is awfull.
Ride , way better on 777.
Economics , well you,ll have to ask the beancounters.
But had 476 pob yesterday on 777-300er , most I ever had on the A332 was 290 odd. But again 5500 kg,hr v 8000 kg,hr +- . who knows ?
I do know this going into Hong Kong in the typhoon I was so comfortable in the 777 ( done the same roller coaster in the bus before). So the 777 although dare I say is no where near as clever as the bus , it really delivers when it counts most.
FMC better on bus
Electronic Checklist / Abnoramals better on 777
Handling ( especially in gusty and crosswind conditions 777 is better)
Daily opps , airbus is less busy. but abnormals bus is way busier and more complicated.
Seat is far far superior on the bus , 777 is awfull.
Ride , way better on 777.
Economics , well you,ll have to ask the beancounters.
But had 476 pob yesterday on 777-300er , most I ever had on the A332 was 290 odd. But again 5500 kg,hr v 8000 kg,hr +- . who knows ?
I do know this going into Hong Kong in the typhoon I was so comfortable in the 777 ( done the same roller coaster in the bus before). So the 777 although dare I say is no where near as clever as the bus , it really delivers when it counts most.
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As for mixed fleet flying, Thomas Cook Airlines in the UK still MFF with the A320 family and A330 family, varying in MTOW of 77,000kg to 230,000 kg.
When MFF its different but still the same to fly, basically one you sit in for about 5 hours and the other around eight hours, you still get a sore butt!
The 777 and A330 are both good at what they do but the A330 on looks is the winner for me.
With regard to the A330 v the B777 as a MRT Tanker - why not buy both, then it would keep everyone happy provide different capabilitiy and if one turns out to be a dog then ditch it at a later date, history shows that the US Military used to do this all the time, especially the Navy, if they didnt like an aircraft they would give it to the Marines to make it work!
edited: because I cant touch type
When MFF its different but still the same to fly, basically one you sit in for about 5 hours and the other around eight hours, you still get a sore butt!
The 777 and A330 are both good at what they do but the A330 on looks is the winner for me.
With regard to the A330 v the B777 as a MRT Tanker - why not buy both, then it would keep everyone happy provide different capabilitiy and if one turns out to be a dog then ditch it at a later date, history shows that the US Military used to do this all the time, especially the Navy, if they didnt like an aircraft they would give it to the Marines to make it work!
edited: because I cant touch type
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Fleet Variants
Alaska flew the 737-200 as a separate fleet from their CFM powered brethren. Probably a good idea as those -200s had gravel kits, combi cargo doors and flew into unpaved airports.
They operate the 737-400/700/800/900/-400 combi and the freighter all as one fleet model. Oh yeah, there are also variants as to winglets or no and multiple cockpit configs.
They operate the 737-400/700/800/900/-400 combi and the freighter all as one fleet model. Oh yeah, there are also variants as to winglets or no and multiple cockpit configs.
Prof. Airport Engineer
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Fourgolds - at last found time to answer.
With the same 5,000NM sector, comparing the A330-200 and Boeing 777-300ER; the A332 with 293 seats and 773 with 451 seats. Flight crew costs similar, but the 777 cabin crew trip cost is $3500 higher because many more hosties are on board. Trip fuel is $21,000 more for the 773 (at $US 3.60 per US gal).
Cash DOC per seat NM is interesting. The A330-200 and B777-200ER are close (US$0.060 and $0.057 respectively) and the 777-300ER and A330-300 are the same at US$0.049.
When lease costs are added in, it becomes:
A330-200 and B777-200ER are close (US$0.082 and $0.078 per seat NM respectively) and the 777-300ER and A330-300 are close (US$0.067 and $0.069 respectively). Which means that with the A330-300, you get the cheap economics of the big 451 seat 777 but in a handy size and more flexible 335 seater.
Like all these comparisons, it depends on the input data. A good purchase deal will alter the economics – I used the same discount off aircraft list price for all aircraft. And actual internal seat configuration will change the seat-mile cost.
Boy the fuel is a killer today!!! At $3.60 per US gal, the fuel component of the cash DOCs ranges from 68-73%. OK, that doesn’t include any airline ground costs, marketing costs, or lease costs, but it is still scary. At the old price of $1 per US gal, which was the price when these sorts of planes were being bought, the fuel component of the cash DOCs ranged from 37-42%.
BRE
I’m not sure why the efficiency difference with the 777. My guesses from the economics viewpoint are that the weight difference has to be one factor – it weighs a lot more than the same capacity Airbus. The 777 has bigger engines that burn a lot more fuel than the equivalent Airbus. And the 777 costs more. But I’m sure there is a lot more to it than that, and there are others more able to comment.
With the same 5,000NM sector, comparing the A330-200 and Boeing 777-300ER; the A332 with 293 seats and 773 with 451 seats. Flight crew costs similar, but the 777 cabin crew trip cost is $3500 higher because many more hosties are on board. Trip fuel is $21,000 more for the 773 (at $US 3.60 per US gal).
Cash DOC per seat NM is interesting. The A330-200 and B777-200ER are close (US$0.060 and $0.057 respectively) and the 777-300ER and A330-300 are the same at US$0.049.
When lease costs are added in, it becomes:
A330-200 and B777-200ER are close (US$0.082 and $0.078 per seat NM respectively) and the 777-300ER and A330-300 are close (US$0.067 and $0.069 respectively). Which means that with the A330-300, you get the cheap economics of the big 451 seat 777 but in a handy size and more flexible 335 seater.
Like all these comparisons, it depends on the input data. A good purchase deal will alter the economics – I used the same discount off aircraft list price for all aircraft. And actual internal seat configuration will change the seat-mile cost.
Boy the fuel is a killer today!!! At $3.60 per US gal, the fuel component of the cash DOCs ranges from 68-73%. OK, that doesn’t include any airline ground costs, marketing costs, or lease costs, but it is still scary. At the old price of $1 per US gal, which was the price when these sorts of planes were being bought, the fuel component of the cash DOCs ranged from 37-42%.
BRE
I’m not sure why the efficiency difference with the 777. My guesses from the economics viewpoint are that the weight difference has to be one factor – it weighs a lot more than the same capacity Airbus. The 777 has bigger engines that burn a lot more fuel than the equivalent Airbus. And the 777 costs more. But I’m sure there is a lot more to it than that, and there are others more able to comment.
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"I’m not sure why the efficiency difference with the 777. My guesses from the economics viewpoint are that the weight difference has to be one factor – it weighs a lot more than the same capacity Airbus."
Of course if you want to fly non-stop from say HKG to JFK, the 772ER will do it while the A333 will not. The extra weight at the same capacity does produce a tangible benefit in terms of payload-range.
Of course if you want to fly non-stop from say HKG to JFK, the 772ER will do it while the A333 will not. The extra weight at the same capacity does produce a tangible benefit in terms of payload-range.
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Overrun , Cant argue with those figures.But as you said and as the next poster stated. It depends if you are comparing apples with apples.
Your comparison makes the A330 a more efficient machine without question. However as the next poster stated the 777 can complete missions the 330 cannot in terms of payload and range. So its a strong competitor in both the medium range sectors you described and the long range sectors. Whereas the 330 would require a pitstop to complete same mission on the Longrange/Ulr sector. That would be very pricey.
So the 777 can compete for the medium/longrange and ultra long range trophy and overall if the comparisons were done I think we would find it interesting.
Although I must say I would rather sit in a A330 for 17 hrs ( if it could do it) than on the 777 torture device of a seat. I truly hate the seat on the 777. For all the economics in the world I would rather sit comfy.
Your comparison makes the A330 a more efficient machine without question. However as the next poster stated the 777 can complete missions the 330 cannot in terms of payload and range. So its a strong competitor in both the medium range sectors you described and the long range sectors. Whereas the 330 would require a pitstop to complete same mission on the Longrange/Ulr sector. That would be very pricey.
So the 777 can compete for the medium/longrange and ultra long range trophy and overall if the comparisons were done I think we would find it interesting.
Although I must say I would rather sit in a A330 for 17 hrs ( if it could do it) than on the 777 torture device of a seat. I truly hate the seat on the 777. For all the economics in the world I would rather sit comfy.
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Is this even a fair comparison?
The a330-200's MTOW is 230 tonnes whereas the 777-200er's is 298 tonnes. I wouldn't have thought they could be compared because they're designed to cater for a different market. Am I wrong in thinking that?
The a330-200's MTOW is 230 tonnes whereas the 777-200er's is 298 tonnes. I wouldn't have thought they could be compared because they're designed to cater for a different market. Am I wrong in thinking that?
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@Dani
Falling into old rumors traps...? Autsch.
Swiss does it. And works nicely.
However, they are evaluating the impact of 7 different "kind of types":
A319
A320
A320E (-IJU/V/W)
A320E (from 2010 on)
A321
A330-200
A330-300 (from 2009 on)
Since all these nice birds have been built in different decades, this might cause some headache. But generally everybody loves the idea of MFF.
And to get on topic: Flew Boing and Airbus, and prefer the Bus by far.
So far the facts.
N1
Falling into old rumors traps...? Autsch.
Swiss doesn't do it anymore. There have been a lot of small airlines that used to do it (incl. Lufthansa), but from a certain size it doesn't bring so many benefits anymore.
However, they are evaluating the impact of 7 different "kind of types":
A319
A320
A320E (-IJU/V/W)
A320E (from 2010 on)
A321
A330-200
A330-300 (from 2009 on)
Since all these nice birds have been built in different decades, this might cause some headache. But generally everybody loves the idea of MFF.
And to get on topic: Flew Boing and Airbus, and prefer the Bus by far.
So far the facts.
N1
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Have a friend who works for a UK charter company - told me that some of the senior guys there, including himself, mix 320's and 330's sometimes in the same week....Confirm, anybody ?
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I do know that some bmi pilots fly the A319 (or 320/321) one day and then can jump into the A330 the next.
