747 Landing technique
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Joined: Feb 1999
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From: UK
747 Landing technique
For the final approach say from 1000ft down to say 100ft, what technique is used on the 747?
Is it the "point and power" technique whereby Pitch attitude controls rate of descent and Power controls speed...... OR.....
Is it the other technique (don't know the name) whereby Pitch controls speed and Power controls rate of descent?
Thanks.
Is it the "point and power" technique whereby Pitch attitude controls rate of descent and Power controls speed...... OR.....
Is it the other technique (don't know the name) whereby Pitch controls speed and Power controls rate of descent?
Thanks.
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: Gatters.......
Suppose it all depends on where you come from....
Where I come from power controls your ROD (or ROC for that matter via excess thrust) and pitch your speed.....
Then again on airliners, it all seems to be a bit of a blur cause of the FD and autothrust, in my experience.
But Raw data, manual flying, manual thrust.....pitch for speed and power for ROD for me.....
Where I come from power controls your ROD (or ROC for that matter via excess thrust) and pitch your speed.....
Then again on airliners, it all seems to be a bit of a blur cause of the FD and autothrust, in my experience.
But Raw data, manual flying, manual thrust.....pitch for speed and power for ROD for me.....
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Somewhere on a dodgy name badge
At GS intercept select the attitude for the 3 degree descent and reduce the thrust to give you the correct ROD. The attitude controls the speed and the thrust the ROD. Increase the thrust and to maintain the correct airspeed make a small attitude adjustment hence the ROD will reduce.
From DH to touchdown it reverses: the control column manages the flight path and the thrust the speed.
SO the answer is both
From DH to touchdown it reverses: the control column manages the flight path and the thrust the speed.
SO the answer is both
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: The Winchester
AFAIR it many Moons ago in some "decending" exercises on the JP ( basic Jet) we taught power controls ROD and attitude controls airspeed, (Oscar Yankee's point) ...and that was the technique to be applied at medium level and was also the one to be used around the finals turn - e.g if you were low half way round finals you applied power to reduce ROD and raised the noise to control speed.
However once rolled out on finals the teaching was to point at the numbers and control speed with power. There was a bit of angst and discussion at times about teaching Blogs this apparent change in technique but at the end of the day as long as you realise pitch / power is interrelated, as we all know, then I guess we use whatever "method" works for us.
Frankly I reckon you are stuffed if you end up thinking too much about it - then again you should see/feel some of my landings on the 744
However once rolled out on finals the teaching was to point at the numbers and control speed with power. There was a bit of angst and discussion at times about teaching Blogs this apparent change in technique but at the end of the day as long as you realise pitch / power is interrelated, as we all know, then I guess we use whatever "method" works for us.
Frankly I reckon you are stuffed if you end up thinking too much about it - then again you should see/feel some of my landings on the 744
Last edited by wiggy; 15th June 2008 at 21:17.
Joined: May 2000
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From: Seattle
Power + Pitch = Performance. Trim the pitch to hold the speed and set the power to maintain the descent rate. Adjust both as necessary.
If you're having to consciously think about "technique" such as this on final, maybe you shouldn't be flying a 747!
If you're having to consciously think about "technique" such as this on final, maybe you shouldn't be flying a 747!
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Honolulu
I agree Intruder. Don't really think about it just do it. The classic seems to like abut a 3 degree pitch on a 3 degree glideslope at 25 flap. If you are flying a higher pitch to hold glideslope, just add 5 knots and vice versa.
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: cloud 9
Intruder says it all. For a constant angle final approach in still air conditions, you need a combination of power and pitch - get it right early on and you won't need to vary either, but remember that an increase in power will result in an increase in pitch and vice-versa. After a few attempts on the simulator, it will become secon-nature.
Glueball is quite correct in the demonstration of an autoland.
Glueball is quite correct in the demonstration of an autoland.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Manchester
To achieve the correct glidepath/glide-angle, pitch controls speed and power controls rate of descent.
Once on the correct glidepath/glide angle, power controls speed and pitch/bank points you at the landing point.
Once on the correct glidepath/glide angle, power controls speed and pitch/bank points you at the landing point.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Dunnunda
hhhmmm.. power for RoD.... something about swept wing jets and the aerodynamics of the drag curve which makes me cringe at the idea, BUt each to their own. You tend to use both anyway, simultaneously!
To fast pitch up, higher rate of descent, more power, still to past pitch up, even higher rate of decent, more power etc etc etc.
I feel for the people down the back.
To fast pitch up, higher rate of descent, more power, still to past pitch up, even higher rate of decent, more power etc etc etc.
I feel for the people down the back.
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Chichester, UK
pitch/power
Gentlemen (and ladies)
Am surprised by your confusion. On a light aeroplane without much in the way of excess power and certainly very little inertia then the favoured technique was always to control the speed with pitch and the rate of descent with power. I was taught this in the airforce and taught it myself. Can you imagine, however, just how uncomfortable this would be to your pax in the back of a highly powered and heavy (ie loads of inertia) widebody jet?! Remember, inertia is the reluctance of a body to change, in this case, its speed and would need a pretty impressive pitch change to achieve this effectively in, say, a 200 ton aeroplane. We all, probably instinctively, point at the aiming point and use thrust to achieve the desired speed on anything from a turboprop upwards. It is just that you have 'forgotten' that you do it and you do it instinctively. It is also true that power and pitch are totally inter-dependant so that,although both methods work out, only the thrust equals speed and pitch equals descent rate is the really appropriate method to use for large inertia aeroplanes.
I'll standby for some flak.....
Am surprised by your confusion. On a light aeroplane without much in the way of excess power and certainly very little inertia then the favoured technique was always to control the speed with pitch and the rate of descent with power. I was taught this in the airforce and taught it myself. Can you imagine, however, just how uncomfortable this would be to your pax in the back of a highly powered and heavy (ie loads of inertia) widebody jet?! Remember, inertia is the reluctance of a body to change, in this case, its speed and would need a pretty impressive pitch change to achieve this effectively in, say, a 200 ton aeroplane. We all, probably instinctively, point at the aiming point and use thrust to achieve the desired speed on anything from a turboprop upwards. It is just that you have 'forgotten' that you do it and you do it instinctively. It is also true that power and pitch are totally inter-dependant so that,although both methods work out, only the thrust equals speed and pitch equals descent rate is the really appropriate method to use for large inertia aeroplanes.
I'll standby for some flak.....
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From: Hong Kong
I fly nothing bigger than a 172 and to be honest I have never really thought too much about this until now. On final I make pitch and power corrections without consciously thinking about it. in fact, after contemplating this thread, I'm afraid I'll over think my next approach and bugger it up!
But then this was a 747 thread...I'll get my coat.
But then this was a 747 thread...I'll get my coat.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: Australia
Crosswind landings in a 747 or similar heavy jet. The inertia of these types must cause a handling problem to pilots learning to handle crosswind landings.
Assuming the flare manoeuvre to touch-down is 3-5 seconds it means you have less than that time to "kick-off" drift (I know that is a wrong term but you know what I am getting at presumably) to ensure the aircraft touches down aligned with the runway centre-line - ie nil drift angle. With such a large mass is it normal therefore to keep the thrust up for as long as it takes for the nose to swing around in alignment, and then close the thrust levers after touch-down?
The crosswind landing technique is probably the same on a 747 or similar wide body as a B737 right down to a Cessna 172. Of course the inertia of the 172 makes it easy to align with the runway with a touch of rudder during the flare. But I guess it takes several seconds to align a 747 with the centre line assuming sat max crosswind angle. I have not flown a 747 which is why I am curious as to the time in seconds needed to complete the alignment procedure to nil drift.
Assuming the flare manoeuvre to touch-down is 3-5 seconds it means you have less than that time to "kick-off" drift (I know that is a wrong term but you know what I am getting at presumably) to ensure the aircraft touches down aligned with the runway centre-line - ie nil drift angle. With such a large mass is it normal therefore to keep the thrust up for as long as it takes for the nose to swing around in alignment, and then close the thrust levers after touch-down?
The crosswind landing technique is probably the same on a 747 or similar wide body as a B737 right down to a Cessna 172. Of course the inertia of the 172 makes it easy to align with the runway with a touch of rudder during the flare. But I guess it takes several seconds to align a 747 with the centre line assuming sat max crosswind angle. I have not flown a 747 which is why I am curious as to the time in seconds needed to complete the alignment procedure to nil drift.
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Tring, UK
...The pitch axis is ahead of the main gear, so as you descend to last 5', the mains pivot away from the asphalt (relative to the fus)...
My theory is that in many aircraft, the smoothest landings result from having a certain (low) rate-of-descent when you touch down, which is progressively removed as you sink down on the suspension, leaving the airframe at rest in the normal axis w.r.t. the ground and at the 'taxiing' level of extension on the oleos.
