Headset. Do you have your own?
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How much faith do you have in these disinfectant tissues? Do you really think with a little pad of material lightly soaked with weak disinfectant you are really achieving anything disinfection-wise? Viruses are hard to kill. Superficial cleaning won't get anything off- even dentists have to use a microwave oven to clean their dental tools, and even then it doesn't kill everything. I'm afraid a little 10 second wipe down with a little cloth achieves nothing. I really don't think it is going to kill Staphylococcus! That's why I like my own headset.
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The disinfectant wipes are for the microphone. And the control yoke. And the oxygen mask. Think about it.
Really think the company is going to issue you an oxygen mask to carry about? Of course not. None of those things...are you going to get out your autoclave and dental pick to steralize the yoke held by the last 300 pilots, when it's your turn to handle it? I think not.
Some of us are smart enough to put both fingers in our ears. Not just one. And yes, many years of gunfire and radial engines has taken it's toll. And no, as stated before, I don't do the walk around, because the flight engineer does.
And yes, I have my own headset. As stated several times before. I have about a dozen of them. None bought by any company. Headsets are provided, and most use them. I do too. I keep my own headset as a backup.
The lightweight headsets we use have no noise attenuating value, nor is it particularly needed. One would look fairly stupid trying to wonder around outside wearing the cockpit headset, anyway.
And no, the employer isn't required to provide us with "ear defenders" on the job. Further, the regulations and policies of OSHA in the US aren't the same as what you have in the UK or elsewhere.
Might as well demand your employer issue you nomex uniforms while you're at it. You just never know.
Really think the company is going to issue you an oxygen mask to carry about? Of course not. None of those things...are you going to get out your autoclave and dental pick to steralize the yoke held by the last 300 pilots, when it's your turn to handle it? I think not.
Some of us are smart enough to put both fingers in our ears. Not just one. And yes, many years of gunfire and radial engines has taken it's toll. And no, as stated before, I don't do the walk around, because the flight engineer does.
And yes, I have my own headset. As stated several times before. I have about a dozen of them. None bought by any company. Headsets are provided, and most use them. I do too. I keep my own headset as a backup.
The lightweight headsets we use have no noise attenuating value, nor is it particularly needed. One would look fairly stupid trying to wonder around outside wearing the cockpit headset, anyway.
And no, the employer isn't required to provide us with "ear defenders" on the job. Further, the regulations and policies of OSHA in the US aren't the same as what you have in the UK or elsewhere.
Might as well demand your employer issue you nomex uniforms while you're at it. You just never know.
slip and turn
Headsets are NOT rquired to be provided by any legislation or rule. You are misinformed. Employers musst asses the noise levels on a particular aircraft, and many these days are below the threshold for PPE.
Headsets are required by the ANO for IFR etc, but no mention is made of ANR or noise attenuation.
The argument now is, whether your aircraft type is above or below the threshold, and how the measurement is taken. PPE may be required to be provided, but not on a personal basis.
I was waiting for company provided equipment, but gave up going deaf in the meantime. Having your own headset is highly reccomended for all the reasons above.
Headsets are required by the ANO for IFR etc, but no mention is made of ANR or noise attenuation.
The argument now is, whether your aircraft type is above or below the threshold, and how the measurement is taken. PPE may be required to be provided, but not on a personal basis.
I was waiting for company provided equipment, but gave up going deaf in the meantime. Having your own headset is highly reccomended for all the reasons above.
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goeasy, I never said they were specifically. I am not misinformed. I know many cockpit environments are now below standard 'excessive noise levels', but if you generally need to wear the headset and it is not noise attenuating, does the volume setting take the noise level at the ear to above 80db, for example?
The ANO is not the law most intended to protect aircrew long-term health, is it? Hardly surprising then that there's nothing in it about noise attenuation. You have to look at other legislation/statutory regulations to take your cue on what to do about excessive noise in the workplace and maintenance of tools and PPE.
As for apron noise, if aircrew are not freely issued with ear defenders or very high spec ear plugs when they are outside of the aircraft/airbridges then I am surprised. 2 minutes a day at 110db would be enough to permanently damage most people's hearing so if it is fingers in ears only then it wouldn't pay to start a conversation out there near the back end, would it?
The ANO is not the law most intended to protect aircrew long-term health, is it? Hardly surprising then that there's nothing in it about noise attenuation. You have to look at other legislation/statutory regulations to take your cue on what to do about excessive noise in the workplace and maintenance of tools and PPE.
As for apron noise, if aircrew are not freely issued with ear defenders or very high spec ear plugs when they are outside of the aircraft/airbridges then I am surprised. 2 minutes a day at 110db would be enough to permanently damage most people's hearing so if it is fingers in ears only then it wouldn't pay to start a conversation out there near the back end, would it?
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so if it is fingers in ears only then it wouldn't pay to start a conversation out there near the back end, would it?
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My airline provides headsets and Sanicom wipes.
I have been using TELEX 550 and I have just received Telex 850 ANR ones from US via DHL.
I got it for 400$ from Sportys before shipping.
Z
I have been using TELEX 550 and I have just received Telex 850 ANR ones from US via DHL.
I got it for 400$ from Sportys before shipping.
Z
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I think I already did a bit, PA 
So yes Mr Guppy, in response to your last: three bags full Sir
. But temptation to remove said digit(s) from their ideal sealed location even a teensy bit will immediately start to flatten a few more villi, whereas donning proper ear defenders from the outset and leaving them there whilst you guide any communicant e.g. refueler, loader, dispatcher (using your third arm or one of your first two?) to a less noisy area might be the most sensible course. Alternatively I would guess that you may have perfected the nod with fingers still firmly in, not forgetting that thrown glance towards the nosewheel and then the 'follow me' type walk, Guppy 
. Oh I forgot. you don't go out, you have a man for that 
Carrying defenders about the person is as mandatory on some aprons as hi-viz vests, but I guess visiting aircrew often don't know the local ear defender rules as well as the universal vest rule.
Sometimes, passengers are exposed to excessive apron levels too through plain ignorance I guess. Even happened unusually at Stansted with a Ryanair flight a couple of months ago. First sector of the day, passengers let on to apron and then held at the bottom of the steps for several minutes front and back with APU running.
By the way, am I right in thinking that sometimes a suitable noise reducing headset for the cockpit on a particular type may offer poor protection as a defender when walking round outside? In particular, several people have mentioned Telex 850 now - they wouldn't be much good on a busy apron even for a few minutes, so are they actually any good for the cockpits of older turboprops e.g. F50 as well as quieter fans?
One would assume not from the shape of them - so is something with proper deep cups needed in an F50 cockpit, or is it not as bad in there as it would appear to be from outside? I think the very best ear defenders must be required to go near F50 at startup, which I think is one of the noisiest types I still come across in recent years.
But you pilots don't carry defenders as a rule?
So yes Mr Guppy, in response to your last: three bags full Sir
. But temptation to remove said digit(s) from their ideal sealed location even a teensy bit will immediately start to flatten a few more villi, whereas donning proper ear defenders from the outset and leaving them there whilst you guide any communicant e.g. refueler, loader, dispatcher (using your third arm or one of your first two?) to a less noisy area might be the most sensible course. Alternatively I would guess that you may have perfected the nod with fingers still firmly in, not forgetting that thrown glance towards the nosewheel and then the 'follow me' type walk, Guppy . Oh I forgot. you don't go out, you have a man for that Carrying defenders about the person is as mandatory on some aprons as hi-viz vests, but I guess visiting aircrew often don't know the local ear defender rules as well as the universal vest rule.
Sometimes, passengers are exposed to excessive apron levels too through plain ignorance I guess. Even happened unusually at Stansted with a Ryanair flight a couple of months ago. First sector of the day, passengers let on to apron and then held at the bottom of the steps for several minutes front and back with APU running.
By the way, am I right in thinking that sometimes a suitable noise reducing headset for the cockpit on a particular type may offer poor protection as a defender when walking round outside? In particular, several people have mentioned Telex 850 now - they wouldn't be much good on a busy apron even for a few minutes, so are they actually any good for the cockpits of older turboprops e.g. F50 as well as quieter fans?
One would assume not from the shape of them - so is something with proper deep cups needed in an F50 cockpit, or is it not as bad in there as it would appear to be from outside? I think the very best ear defenders must be required to go near F50 at startup, which I think is one of the noisiest types I still come across in recent years.
But you pilots don't carry defenders as a rule?
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Slip and Turn, please stop spouting this stuff you are coming out with in this thread- every post is bringing out howlers.
This is a primarily a pilot website. What stuff you are coming out with is incorrect.....every post. On ultra noist types, ANR headsets will probably be provided, they don't have to be. Most, possibly all, pilots, will be issued ear defenders. ANR headsets don't work outside the aircraft. There's nothing wrong with waiting at the stairs of a B737 with APU running. One wouldn't want to do it under the tail of a 1-11 with an APU running above your head.
Can you try and leave out the humour or irony? It doesn't come across well if you wish to be involved in a sensible discussion.
This thread is disgraceful reading from some of you. I take it many of you are in Europe?
There are laws protecting you. Your employer is obliged to provide your Personal Protection Equipment without charge, and replace it immediately without charge if it is damaged or unfit for use, and it must naturally be fit for purpose when it is originally provided.
You don't buy it yourself. You don't accept substandard equipment that compromises your safety by hurting your precious aviator's head like hell. You insist on the best compatible with your type. You are making a rod for everybody's backs if you do otherwise
What are you? Men or mice?
You argue yourselves silly about rosters, pay rates and pensions and then you let your employers fart about with essential personal safety equipment?
There are laws protecting you. Your employer is obliged to provide your Personal Protection Equipment without charge, and replace it immediately without charge if it is damaged or unfit for use, and it must naturally be fit for purpose when it is originally provided.
You don't buy it yourself. You don't accept substandard equipment that compromises your safety by hurting your precious aviator's head like hell. You insist on the best compatible with your type. You are making a rod for everybody's backs if you do otherwise
What are you? Men or mice?
You argue yourselves silly about rosters, pay rates and pensions and then you let your employers fart about with essential personal safety equipment?
Can you try and leave out the humour or irony? It doesn't come across well if you wish to be involved in a sensible discussion.
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Well PA, it seems it takes all sorts in this business 
... oops! There we go, the brain fart disappeared
Notsofantastic, I don't think I have made any howlers other than that I have dared to suggest that senior pilots who propound the 'you must buy your own to be sure' idea are completely wrong to do so in my view. I don't know exactly how close your view is to that, but I can see you don't agree with the spanners idea. Buy your own and a spare from an approved list of the best and bill the company - sure, I'd see that as ok. In a big company I would have thought that was best organised by the company themselves. As for buying such a thing on eBay, you'd have to be damned sure of the source?
If you are a pilot supplied through an agency then I suppose the law becomes less distinct as to whose duty it is to provide the correct gear.
Sorry about the unclear question about use of cockpit headsets on the apron as 'make do defenders'. I was already thinking about extra noisy types like F50 with short distances between open cockpit windows and main engines when I asked. I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that F50 pilots would wear full cupped headsets even in the cockpit? I was thinking what then are they supposed to wear on the apron? The same cupped headset perhaps? I have rarely seen a pilot on an apron wearing any protection. Almost all I see are finger in the ear merchants at best.
Obviously I'd have to agree you'd look pretty silly prancing around on the apron in your new Telex 850s.
As for also telling me that it's ok for passengers to be left for undefined periods kicking their heels at the back of 737s with the APU running, we'll have to differ on that one
. I guess one man's ok is another's cumulative noise-induced deafness. I'm the one that wear's ear plugs at pop concerts and noisy London musicals - probably full cupped ear defenders would have been better at some of those, but as you say, 'common sense' (or do we mean common pride?) often dictates otherwise if you plan to be part of something .
I think it was Guppy who suggested that just plugging in and trying a headset to test it was good enough i.e. he found it appropriate to ridicule any suggestion that more elaborate testing might be necessary or that communications headsets should be subject to any rigorous log of serviceability. Fair enough. His imagination and undoubted experience just haven't been stretched as far as a rogue headset (re-)discovered at an awkward enough moment for it to be a big deal.
So what else is 'incorrect', Notso? I can see some are having trouble marrying my assertions about HS and Workers Compensation laws to the headset question in their jobs, is that what you call 'incorrect'? If so, what exactly is incorrect about it?
PS $100 off Ebay ?? That's two of you now that have said you got Telex from there? Does your company really just let you plug in something you got off Ebay? I appreciate you gentlemen wouldn't consciously plug in anything you weren't sure about, but isn't this just a further example of degradation of what by now should be a standardised norm?
... oops! There we go, the brain fart disappeared Notsofantastic, I don't think I have made any howlers other than that I have dared to suggest that senior pilots who propound the 'you must buy your own to be sure' idea are completely wrong to do so in my view. I don't know exactly how close your view is to that, but I can see you don't agree with the spanners idea. Buy your own and a spare from an approved list of the best and bill the company - sure, I'd see that as ok. In a big company I would have thought that was best organised by the company themselves. As for buying such a thing on eBay, you'd have to be damned sure of the source?
If you are a pilot supplied through an agency then I suppose the law becomes less distinct as to whose duty it is to provide the correct gear.
Sorry about the unclear question about use of cockpit headsets on the apron as 'make do defenders'. I was already thinking about extra noisy types like F50 with short distances between open cockpit windows and main engines when I asked. I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that F50 pilots would wear full cupped headsets even in the cockpit? I was thinking what then are they supposed to wear on the apron? The same cupped headset perhaps? I have rarely seen a pilot on an apron wearing any protection. Almost all I see are finger in the ear merchants at best.
Obviously I'd have to agree you'd look pretty silly prancing around on the apron in your new Telex 850s
.As for also telling me that it's ok for passengers to be left for undefined periods kicking their heels at the back of 737s with the APU running, we'll have to differ on that one
. I guess one man's ok is another's cumulative noise-induced deafness. I'm the one that wear's ear plugs at pop concerts and noisy London musicals - probably full cupped ear defenders would have been better at some of those, but as you say, 'common sense' (or do we mean common pride?) often dictates otherwise if you plan to be part of something .I think it was Guppy who suggested that just plugging in and trying a headset to test it was good enough i.e. he found it appropriate to ridicule any suggestion that more elaborate testing might be necessary or that communications headsets should be subject to any rigorous log of serviceability. Fair enough. His imagination and undoubted experience just haven't been stretched as far as a rogue headset (re-)discovered at an awkward enough moment for it to be a big deal.
So what else is 'incorrect', Notso? I can see some are having trouble marrying my assertions about HS and Workers Compensation laws to the headset question in their jobs, is that what you call 'incorrect'? If so, what exactly is incorrect about it?
PS $100 off Ebay ?? That's two of you now that have said you got Telex from there? Does your company really just let you plug in something you got off Ebay? I appreciate you gentlemen wouldn't consciously plug in anything you weren't sure about, but isn't this just a further example of degradation of what by now should be a standardised norm?
Last edited by slip and turn; 15th Jun 2008 at 07:39.
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I think it was Guppy who suggested that just plugging in and trying a headset to test it was good enough i.e. he found it appropriate to ridicule any suggestion that more elaborate testing might be necessary or that communications headsets should be subject to any rigorous log of serviceability. Fair enough.
His imagination and undoubted experience just haven't been stretched as far as a rogue headset (re-)discovered at an awkward enough moment for it to be a big deal.
You here expounding at great length on the need for headsets and hearing protection and noise levels in cockpits, and you're not a pilot...is this true?
I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that F50 pilots would wear full cupped headsets even in the cockpit?
If I ever have an explosive decompression---- I'll just refuse my to don O2 mask on the grounds that it is unsafe--- 
and NO FURTHER---ATC coms
--until they do what I want
Oh c'mon JT--that coulda been a classic---a classic I tell ya!!
PA a.k.a
the cookie monster [a.k.a Lester
and NO FURTHER---ATC coms
--until they do what I wantOh c'mon JT--that coulda been a classic---a classic I tell ya!!
PA a.k.a
the cookie monster [a.k.a Lester
teensy bit will immediately start to flatten a few more villi,
Negative!!!---the sound wave transfered from the tympanic membranes via three ossicles[stapes, maleus, incus,]--- where they make contact with the membranous oval window where hair-cells---joined with tip-link proteins--to open channels which transduce the signal to the auditory nerve for further processing by the brain----Furthermore villi are situated in the fallopian tube of females [mammals] and small intestines of all mammals
PA
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I think you'll find that villi is still a correct term for the hairy bits of your hair cells in the cochlea, PA. It's the villi or microvilli to give them the latest more common name, that get permanently damaged by excessive noise. I learned it 40 years ago in a two year course and examinations somewhat harder than I found most ATPL theory courses actually - Biology O'Level, and I got top grade .
I was also quite good at Latin so unlike you I wasn't surprised 35 years ago that the term villi was used to describe more than one than one type of cell. I see now that it isn't used so much now to describe auditory hair cells but if you Google for it you'll see what I mean.
Actually, at risk of splitting hairs further, and having been prompted by you and taken a look at it in Wikipedia, I see that they refer to something called the Organ of Corti now as a separate structure within or adjacent to the cochlea duct, and it is this that contains "hair bundles". It would seem this still isn't a very well understood part of the anatomy as any hearing loss patient will tell you. Best not to split hairs I think and just avoid all risks of damaging it ...
.I was also quite good at Latin so unlike you I wasn't surprised 35 years ago that the term villi was used to describe more than one than one type of cell. I see now that it isn't used so much now to describe auditory hair cells but if you Google for it you'll see what I mean.
Actually, at risk of splitting hairs further, and having been prompted by you and taken a look at it in Wikipedia, I see that they refer to something called the Organ of Corti now as a separate structure within or adjacent to the cochlea duct, and it is this that contains "hair bundles". It would seem this still isn't a very well understood part of the anatomy as any hearing loss patient will tell you. Best not to split hairs I think and just avoid all risks of damaging it ...
Last edited by slip and turn; 15th Jun 2008 at 18:03.
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Oh Gawd, PA, so you think yours is bigger than mine, ... I didn't realise I was truly in a willie-waving contest.
Perhaps you will now explain to all present what's wrong with it now that allows you to dismiss it out of hand, and to detract from a discussion where knowing something about how hearing gets damaged might be useful?
Perhaps you will now explain to all present what's wrong with it now that allows you to dismiss it out of hand, and to detract from a discussion where knowing something about how hearing gets damaged might be useful?
Explain the role of mammilary bodies in auditory processing from the affector--ear---to processing in the temporal lobe?
Explain the role of the Pinna
are sodium or potassium channels involved--how?
explain the vestibular apparatus?
what is signal transduction?
Re: microvilli--- what do they do?---how?
What is a lacteal?
Explain hepatic portal circulation? ---Where are microvilli found? large or small intestine?---what type of epithelium are they composed of
what are four roles of epithelium?
how many types of epithelium are there?
What are the other major tissue types
when does DNA replication occur---what cell types are products of meiosis?
what is the role of catalase in a cell?
how is dolly the sheep possible?
is it possible for two female mammals to produce an offspring why--why not?
will the off spring be male or female? why---why not--
How did scientist use the HIV virus with E coli bacteria produce insulin for Type I diabetics?
why are horseshoe crabs central figures in multibillion dollar biotechnology industry????
as I said I'm a muppet
oh yeah ATP theory
--FAA /JAA--PLANES ARE EASY
Lester
Explain the role of the Pinna
are sodium or potassium channels involved--how?
explain the vestibular apparatus?
what is signal transduction?
Re: microvilli--- what do they do?---how?
What is a lacteal?
Explain hepatic portal circulation? ---Where are microvilli found? large or small intestine?---what type of epithelium are they composed of
what are four roles of epithelium?
how many types of epithelium are there?
What are the other major tissue types
when does DNA replication occur---what cell types are products of meiosis?
what is the role of catalase in a cell?
how is dolly the sheep possible?
is it possible for two female mammals to produce an offspring why--why not?
will the off spring be male or female? why---why not--
How did scientist use the HIV virus with E coli bacteria produce insulin for Type I diabetics?
why are horseshoe crabs central figures in multibillion dollar biotechnology industry????
as I said I'm a muppet
oh yeah ATP theory
--FAA /JAA--PLANES ARE EASYLester
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Now you've totally lost it PA.
If you can remind the good people how hearing gets damaged by excessive noise, it might be useful.
BTW, yes I imagine sodium and potassium channels may be involved, as 30 years ago I did some biophysics (needles in cats brains type stuff - pretty rudimentary and I didn't much like the pictures).
If you can remind the good people how hearing gets damaged by excessive noise, it might be useful.
BTW, yes I imagine sodium and potassium channels may be involved, as 30 years ago I did some biophysics (needles in cats brains type stuff - pretty rudimentary and I didn't much like the pictures).
ahh---biophysics---how is quantum mechanical tunneling important--in photosystem transport kinetics along the chlorophyll--Mg-- porphoryin system?---and yes, I had a job where I did Heart surgery on Mice--under a --not Men--under a dissecting---to figga out what wrong with their {jeans} in the cerebellum and CNS---been through enough cadavers to really know anatomy and physiology--
Why don't YOU go to google scholar and find the readers at pprune an article that supports you premise WRT hearing loss--otherwise you are just being the integral in the interval between ZEERO and ESS AY EXX DEE EXX
hint: spells half -A~~--if computed correctly
Why don't YOU go to google scholar and find the readers at pprune an article that supports you premise WRT hearing loss--otherwise you are just being the integral in the interval between ZEERO and ESS AY EXX DEE EXX
hint: spells half -A~~--if computed correctly