Call V1 3 to 5kts prior
Airmanship requires that the PF be refrenceing his OWN ASI and to ALWAYS be READY for WHAT ever---WHENEVER
I DON''T CARE IF THE PNF CALLS V1 ON TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!---, the question's ARE U READY---- YES I'M READY {Barbara Mason's Words not mines}
at TO it's SP OPS
I WONT REST ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC and I'm not tired
Yo jamas sufri, no jamas llore---
hasta que te conoci .. vi la vida con dolor---no te miento fui feliz aunque muy poco amor---y muy tarde te comprendi que no te deberia amor---porque a pienso en ti mas que ayer mucho mas----da da dada da dum
Westinghouse
I DON''T CARE IF THE PNF CALLS V1 ON TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!---, the question's ARE U READY---- YES I'M READY {Barbara Mason's Words not mines}
at TO it's SP OPS
I WONT REST ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC and I'm not tired
Yo jamas sufri, no jamas llore---
hasta que te conoci .. vi la vida con dolor---no te miento fui feliz aunque muy poco amor---y muy tarde te comprendi que no te deberia amor---porque a pienso en ti mas que ayer mucho mas----da da dada da dum
Westinghouse
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 8th Jul 2008 at 22:32.
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As mentioned above, the auto-V1-callout available on some of bill boeings models calls out V1 just a few knots before V1. Gives you a hint how to do it yourself if that feature is not available, doesn't it?
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Yes, Mr Bong says, the descision must have been MADE AND IMPLEMENTED at v1.
Everyone remember: decide to reject before V1, you are cheesing off the bean counters. Decide to reject after V1, you are cheesing off (Insert favorite Deiety here), and I know which I would rather do.
Everyone remember: decide to reject before V1, you are cheesing off the bean counters. Decide to reject after V1, you are cheesing off (Insert favorite Deiety here), and I know which I would rather do.
I'm one of those who responds with a thank you or precedes with a please
PLEASE ALLOW MR. BOEING TO CALL WHATEVER HE PLEASES HE KNOWS EXACTLY HOW MUCH PLAY YOU HAVE AROUND VEF--DO YOU?
--- A PERFORMANCE ENGINEER SUCH AS MUTT DOES HOWEVER---AND WHEN MR. B'S AFM SAY AT V1 ---THE AT VEE WUN--IT SHALL BE!!!!----ALL THE WONDERFUL NEW IDEAS IN AVIATION
LESTER
--- A PERFORMANCE ENGINEER SUCH AS MUTT DOES HOWEVER---AND WHEN MR. B'S AFM SAY AT V1 ---THE AT VEE WUN--IT SHALL BE!!!!----ALL THE WONDERFUL NEW IDEAS IN AVIATIONLESTER
Everyone should apply for a consultancy at Boeing, Airbus or Piper---but I think you'll only Get hired by the Pitts company--because this V1 nonsense is the Pitts
Lester Wascomat
Lester Wascomat
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 4th Jun 2008 at 01:32. Reason: mi spelin'
Centaurus, with all due respect Sir--- it has always seemed that Guppy is also a very experienced aviator--he has developed admirable airmanship--and is vastly experienced and in the US fars---An ATP--Must!--have a certain moral and ethical character--and he displays this--He is a Gentleman---Aviators are supposed to be---I'm sure He' Not on O'HARE Ground Greeting the Controller in the most formal way
PA
Guppy,
Strainin' at Gnats and Wolfin' down the Elephants
PA--GE maintainance--
yo jamAs sufrI--- yo jamAs llorE ---yo era muy feliz Pero,...Pero te encontrE---dada da dada da dum do ao doo doo
PA
Guppy,
Strainin' at Gnats and Wolfin' down the Elephants
PA--GE maintainance--
yo jamAs sufrI--- yo jamAs llorE ---yo era muy feliz Pero,...Pero te encontrE---dada da dada da dum do ao doo doo
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 4th Jun 2008 at 15:32. Reason: finish the song :)
Speaking of callouts, I didn't like all the military ideas, but simple callouts were a good one. In MAC, it was "GO" at decision speed, "ROTATE" at rotate and that's it! We didn't do an airspeed check, but should have. Even that doesn't need both "ALIVE" and "80 KNOTS", one should be sufficient. "STOP" prior to decision speed would be better than "ABORT, ABORT, ABORT" our mob uses, too.
GF
GF
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Everyone should apply for a consultancy at Boeing, Airbus or Piper---but I think you'll only Get hired by the Pitts company--because this V1 nonsense is the Pitts
If you are so upset at the close up look at V1, why did you create the thread?
Its a mystical make believe world you make when you believe everybody else is cracked but you. I hope it is at least a comfortable place.
The science lends itself to getting boiled down to a simple and clear declaration/instruction/calculation. What you seem to refuse to accept is the far less precise application of the human factor that works to apply the science. You asked for the up close focus on the issue, I am sorry you feel your instigaton of the whole affair to be "the pitts".
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But isn't V1 a conservative figure on the RTOW charts ? V1 will cater for stopping performance (be it Wet or dry) even if the decision to reject is made at V1, and initiated say 2 knots above. Yes i do agree that the decision to reject 5 knots before is always better, and one must always be Go-minded above it, but would i be wrong in saying V1 is very conservative on the charts ?
FlightDirector7 “would i be wrong in saying V1 is very conservative on the charts”
When you consider all of the variables then there may be no margin at all.
First to clarify some points in your post in case I misunderstood them: wet V1 is not the same as dry V1; you require more distance to stop on a wet runway. The decision to reject must be taken before V1, and the RTO first actions commenced at or before V1; the aircraft may not start decelerating until a later higher speed.
Some performance engineers (manufacturers) believe that the RTO distances are too close to the limits. This is particularly so when considering a wet runway.
As with landing performance, a single friction value associated with wet conditions is assumed in the RTO calculations. This value may not cover the wide range friction seen in service, e.g. increasing depth of water up to ‘contaminated’ (3mm), different surfaces – smooth vs grooved, concrete vs tarmac. Then there is paint and rubber deposits on the runway to consider, brake and tyre condition, and accuracy of wind information – the friction associated with the previous conditions are not know to the crew.
Where ever possible my SOP was to use the wet V1, I chose to accept a lower screen height in the rare event of an engine failure at V1 – go minded. This in my judgement entailed less risk than a stop from just before a ‘dry’ V1. The tricky problem is when the runway is wet (you need the wet V1), but would like to reject earlier – which is not possible if already at the Vmcg limit; be very, very sure about your stop decision – think about the situations (briefing), reasons, warnings, and actions carefully before take off.
The problem is heightened with poor/marginal runway conditions. Again comparing with landing; some runways are classified 'slippery when wet', where the operators are expected to take account of this; this warning (classification) is important during takeoff as it will effect an RTO – but who actually considers that?
When you consider all of the variables then there may be no margin at all.
First to clarify some points in your post in case I misunderstood them: wet V1 is not the same as dry V1; you require more distance to stop on a wet runway. The decision to reject must be taken before V1, and the RTO first actions commenced at or before V1; the aircraft may not start decelerating until a later higher speed.
Some performance engineers (manufacturers) believe that the RTO distances are too close to the limits. This is particularly so when considering a wet runway.
As with landing performance, a single friction value associated with wet conditions is assumed in the RTO calculations. This value may not cover the wide range friction seen in service, e.g. increasing depth of water up to ‘contaminated’ (3mm), different surfaces – smooth vs grooved, concrete vs tarmac. Then there is paint and rubber deposits on the runway to consider, brake and tyre condition, and accuracy of wind information – the friction associated with the previous conditions are not know to the crew.
Where ever possible my SOP was to use the wet V1, I chose to accept a lower screen height in the rare event of an engine failure at V1 – go minded. This in my judgement entailed less risk than a stop from just before a ‘dry’ V1. The tricky problem is when the runway is wet (you need the wet V1), but would like to reject earlier – which is not possible if already at the Vmcg limit; be very, very sure about your stop decision – think about the situations (briefing), reasons, warnings, and actions carefully before take off.
The problem is heightened with poor/marginal runway conditions. Again comparing with landing; some runways are classified 'slippery when wet', where the operators are expected to take account of this; this warning (classification) is important during takeoff as it will effect an RTO – but who actually considers that?
Last edited by PEI_3721; 7th Jun 2008 at 16:25.
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Hi PEI 3721,
I agree with all your comments. When i had mentioned the V1 speeds "be it wet or dry" in my last post i had known that they would be much lower in the case of wet for all the reasons you had mentioned and more ofcourse. As a matter of fact, on the A319/320/321, i have seen V1 speeds up to 12 knots lower than that of a dry runway at certain airfields. My question was simply to ascertain whether V1 on RTOW charts are so critical that they don't factor in reaction time even if you reject slightly above V1. Lets take a case where there is no split between the V1 and Vr, yes rejecting now is pointless as you might as well get airborne. But if you have a split of say 8-9 knots between V1 and Vr, due to climb gradient performance, its a more serious matter accelerating to Vr after having lost an engine. Leaving aside the legal implications of rejecting slightly above V1, my question was does that speed leave an margin for you being a conservative speed, or is it a GO speed ?
I agree with all your comments. When i had mentioned the V1 speeds "be it wet or dry" in my last post i had known that they would be much lower in the case of wet for all the reasons you had mentioned and more ofcourse. As a matter of fact, on the A319/320/321, i have seen V1 speeds up to 12 knots lower than that of a dry runway at certain airfields. My question was simply to ascertain whether V1 on RTOW charts are so critical that they don't factor in reaction time even if you reject slightly above V1. Lets take a case where there is no split between the V1 and Vr, yes rejecting now is pointless as you might as well get airborne. But if you have a split of say 8-9 knots between V1 and Vr, due to climb gradient performance, its a more serious matter accelerating to Vr after having lost an engine. Leaving aside the legal implications of rejecting slightly above V1, my question was does that speed leave an margin for you being a conservative speed, or is it a GO speed ?
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FD-
V1 is the speed at which the first action to stop must take place.
Your confusion comes from the fact that in the certification process time is added for each of up to 3 actions to take place. Brakes, Speed brake, Idle. The time taken to complete these actions is then expanded in the AFM to allow for the dumb pilot who can't find the Speed brake lever or is slow to brake or select Idle.
This does not mean you have thinking time above V1, it means you have already decided to stop but have a few seconds to actually do it.
I honestly believe that some of the discussions on this subject have clouded a very straight forward operating philosophy.
V1 is the speed at which the first action to stop must take place.
Your confusion comes from the fact that in the certification process time is added for each of up to 3 actions to take place. Brakes, Speed brake, Idle. The time taken to complete these actions is then expanded in the AFM to allow for the dumb pilot who can't find the Speed brake lever or is slow to brake or select Idle.
This does not mean you have thinking time above V1, it means you have already decided to stop but have a few seconds to actually do it.
I honestly believe that some of the discussions on this subject have clouded a very straight forward operating philosophy.
