Logging Flight Hours in the Airlines
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Northern Hemisphere
Logging Flight Hours in the Airlines
Peeps,
I started my first Airline Job recently and now after my first few weeks of line training, I'm ready to start making entries in a new JAR-FCL Logbook.
Over the last few weeks I've asked Skippers and FO's at my Airline as well as colleagues in various other Airlines about how they maintain Logbooks. The general lowdown is that this isn't on many peoples lists of priorities.
That's fair enough! With electronic records and the voyage reports that are available, we have records that can be transposed to a Logbook at any time. I haven't seen anybody getting Logbooks out in the crewroom or on the flightdeck. With all the paperwork and a desire for us to get home after a shift, Logbooks don't come into the equation.
Having spoken to someone at the authorities though, they would ideally like the PIC under supervision (ie the PF sectors) to be signed by the PIC in the remarks column. This is understandable as it isn't flagged on the voyage reports and the breakdown of the ATPL requires so many hours PIC/US. Co Pilot time is simply backed up by the Voyage report, as this is defintely the minimum that you would be doing.
The person I spoke to wasn't clear cut though and said 'try' to get some signatures. I've also heard of peeps just getting the base captain to do a monthly sign off.
What's the word on the street peeps? I doubt many of us go around the crewroom harassing skippers for Logbook signatures and I'm sure everyone gets the ATPL once they've clocked up the hours. How does it work?
Cheers
I started my first Airline Job recently and now after my first few weeks of line training, I'm ready to start making entries in a new JAR-FCL Logbook.
Over the last few weeks I've asked Skippers and FO's at my Airline as well as colleagues in various other Airlines about how they maintain Logbooks. The general lowdown is that this isn't on many peoples lists of priorities.
That's fair enough! With electronic records and the voyage reports that are available, we have records that can be transposed to a Logbook at any time. I haven't seen anybody getting Logbooks out in the crewroom or on the flightdeck. With all the paperwork and a desire for us to get home after a shift, Logbooks don't come into the equation.
Having spoken to someone at the authorities though, they would ideally like the PIC under supervision (ie the PF sectors) to be signed by the PIC in the remarks column. This is understandable as it isn't flagged on the voyage reports and the breakdown of the ATPL requires so many hours PIC/US. Co Pilot time is simply backed up by the Voyage report, as this is defintely the minimum that you would be doing.
The person I spoke to wasn't clear cut though and said 'try' to get some signatures. I've also heard of peeps just getting the base captain to do a monthly sign off.
What's the word on the street peeps? I doubt many of us go around the crewroom harassing skippers for Logbook signatures and I'm sure everyone gets the ATPL once they've clocked up the hours. How does it work?
Cheers
Last edited by Diamond_Dog; 7th April 2008 at 15:21.
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Between EGGP and EGCC
Countersigning log book
Hi there
When I sent my log book off to unfreeze my ATPL (back in 2002) I had the chief pilot sign off as a single instance that all my entries were correct and truthful etc. There was no comeback from the CAA, so I can say AFAIK that you would not need every P1/S entry countersigned.
I think the old system (before my time) was to count P2 time as half P1/S time, so therefore you would be claiming more "hours" under that system if you were cheating....and therefore the countersignatory was more necessary then.
No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that
Cheers
WM
When I sent my log book off to unfreeze my ATPL (back in 2002) I had the chief pilot sign off as a single instance that all my entries were correct and truthful etc. There was no comeback from the CAA, so I can say AFAIK that you would not need every P1/S entry countersigned.
I think the old system (before my time) was to count P2 time as half P1/S time, so therefore you would be claiming more "hours" under that system if you were cheating....and therefore the countersignatory was more necessary then.
No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that
Cheers
WM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Some years ago, I applied to a SE asian airline as a B707 Captain.
I was promptly accepted and the DGCA issued the local relevant ATPL license because I had, on application, a stamped/approved pilots log book with the relevant command hours duly recorded.
Another applicant, who did not have any log book, presented to the DGCA computer copies of his previouis flying hours at JAL.
Not signed log book, no license.
Opps!
Better safe than sorry.
IE: keep youir personal log book right up to date and have it stamped/signed by the company, for best results.
Who knows...one might find greener pastures elsewhere and need the log.
I was promptly accepted and the DGCA issued the local relevant ATPL license because I had, on application, a stamped/approved pilots log book with the relevant command hours duly recorded.
Another applicant, who did not have any log book, presented to the DGCA computer copies of his previouis flying hours at JAL.
Not signed log book, no license.
Opps!
Better safe than sorry.
IE: keep youir personal log book right up to date and have it stamped/signed by the company, for best results.
Who knows...one might find greener pastures elsewhere and need the log.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 350
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From: ***
By now I keep a daily daily planner in wich I put my flights, along with crew names and weather, and even some remarks on what went down that day. i used to keep the regular tabular kind, but reading back to my notes kept like a flight diary is way more fun...
Don't take it too serious, here in europe they will let the electronic log provided by the company count, but it's no fun to read through those printouts...
And you have to prove to authorities the amount of landings (at least 3) in the last 90 days, if asked to show your licence, so keep recording, or carrying those prints...
Nic
Don't take it too serious, here in europe they will let the electronic log provided by the company count, but it's no fun to read through those printouts...
And you have to prove to authorities the amount of landings (at least 3) in the last 90 days, if asked to show your licence, so keep recording, or carrying those prints...
Nic
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 45
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From: Northern Hemisphere
Thanks for the feedback guys. (lol.. Nice one Glueball)
Flyerguy.. It doesn't sound like you have a JAR-FCL logbook? (If you don't then you can obtain one from any pilot shop or online from places like Transair if you reside in the UK).
I think I can answer your question regarding merging the day's sector's into one solid chunk.
CAA LASORS states that you can merge sectors if the time inbetween each sector is no more than 20 mins. (Not often the case). I've no idea how that works as you pretty much gain 20 mins logbook time for nothing.
I would log each sector separately
Flyerguy.. It doesn't sound like you have a JAR-FCL logbook? (If you don't then you can obtain one from any pilot shop or online from places like Transair if you reside in the UK).
I think I can answer your question regarding merging the day's sector's into one solid chunk.
CAA LASORS states that you can merge sectors if the time inbetween each sector is no more than 20 mins. (Not often the case). I've no idea how that works as you pretty much gain 20 mins logbook time for nothing.
I would log each sector separately
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,114
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From: UK
Heres what I do....Firstly I have one of those black Jeppesen JAR-FCL logbooks with loads of columns. I fly the A320 and am on a CPL/IR although the ATPL upgrade is fast approaching. I log chock to chocks. All time is logged as multi pilot for obvious reasons. I log all time as IFR as well since that is what we are doing. The logbook has further columns for night and P1 and co-pilot. I am not overly an*l about night time and if its dark I throw in a bit for that. It all helps in the end. Some guys go to the extent of printing out official sunrise/sunset timetables and good on them for being so accurate.
Above the P1 printed column I annotate P1/s or PICUS. For the legs that I am pilot flying (PF) I log the time under the P1/s column. On the remaining legs I log it as co-pilot time. At the end of each sector since I am doing paperwork usually once we are on stand I usually reach down to my nav bag which is beside me and update the logbook there and then or at least get a print out from the MCDU for later in the cruise if things are busy. At the end of the day I will get the captain to sign in the remarks column for me against the legs we flew together.
The best advice I ever got was to keep your logbook current. I regularly fly with guys that haven't updated their logbooks in ages. They then spend literally days with bits of paper updating.
Above the P1 printed column I annotate P1/s or PICUS. For the legs that I am pilot flying (PF) I log the time under the P1/s column. On the remaining legs I log it as co-pilot time. At the end of each sector since I am doing paperwork usually once we are on stand I usually reach down to my nav bag which is beside me and update the logbook there and then or at least get a print out from the MCDU for later in the cruise if things are busy. At the end of the day I will get the captain to sign in the remarks column for me against the legs we flew together.
The best advice I ever got was to keep your logbook current. I regularly fly with guys that haven't updated their logbooks in ages. They then spend literally days with bits of paper updating.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
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From: Somewhere
CAA LASORS states that you can merge sectors if the time inbetween each sector is no more than 20 mins. (Not often the case). I've no idea how that works as you pretty much gain 20 mins logbook time for nothing.
e. A co-pilot acting as pilot-in-command under
the supervision of the pilot-in-command on
an aeroplane on which more than one pilot
is required under the type certification of the
aeroplane or as required by JAR-OPS provided
such pilot-in-command time under supervision
(see paragraph 5 below) is countersigned by the
pilot-in-command.
. . .
f. If the holder of a licence carries out a number
of flights upon the same day returning on each
occasion to the same place of departure and
the interval between successive flights does not
exceed thirty minutes, such series of flights may
recorded as a single entry.
the supervision of the pilot-in-command on
an aeroplane on which more than one pilot
is required under the type certification of the
aeroplane or as required by JAR-OPS provided
such pilot-in-command time under supervision
(see paragraph 5 below) is countersigned by the
pilot-in-command.
. . .
f. If the holder of a licence carries out a number
of flights upon the same day returning on each
occasion to the same place of departure and
the interval between successive flights does not
exceed thirty minutes, such series of flights may
recorded as a single entry.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
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From: USA
Regarding ATPL issue and P1/S...
When I went to the CAA FCL dept to get my ATPL issued I didn't claim any of my hours with the airline as P1/S as I had no signatures. I had enough P1 from other means not to need it and had assumed "no signature = P1/S". So all my airline time was claimed P2. The chap at the desk took one look at the hours and told me that since it was airline time at least half must be P1/S and crossed through the P2 figure on the form, halved it and added it to my P1 time. He said that if necessary for bods with low P1 hours they will just get a fax from your airline to confirm that you've been flying that type multi-crew. Others from my company who've been through since have done just that.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
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From: Somewhere
It's supposed to be the Captains signature for P1/S rather than his name.
I still can't quite get my head round this P1/S for PF sectors. I would log P1/S when doing a command conversion course, because you would be in the left hand seat acting as PIC under supervision.
But in the right hand seat, as PF, you might be handling and making some decisions, but your not PIC.
I don't get it.
I still can't quite get my head round this P1/S for PF sectors. I would log P1/S when doing a command conversion course, because you would be in the left hand seat acting as PIC under supervision.
But in the right hand seat, as PF, you might be handling and making some decisions, but your not PIC.
I don't get it.
Last edited by mini-jumbo; 10th April 2008 at 20:59.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: The Smoke
LASORS states confirmation of PIC U/S flight time is required prior to license issue (ATPL) which can either take the form of a letter from the operating company OR certification of each flight within the pilots logbook by the PIC, either is accepted.
For ATPL issue it also states (amongst other requirements):
250h PIC of aeroplanes required of which max 150 hrs of co-pilot time perfomed as PIC/US.
Whether they want this in the logbook as (signatures or no signatures) who knows. I'm now logging F/O time as either PF P1(U/S) under PIC hours and PNF as P2 co-pilot hrs whereas before I just logged it all P2.
For ATPL issue it also states (amongst other requirements):
250h PIC of aeroplanes required of which max 150 hrs of co-pilot time perfomed as PIC/US.
Whether they want this in the logbook as (signatures or no signatures) who knows. I'm now logging F/O time as either PF P1(U/S) under PIC hours and PNF as P2 co-pilot hrs whereas before I just logged it all P2.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: The Smoke
2nd post on this link is also useful regarding PIC U/S http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...light=logbooks
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
It's supposed to be the Captains signature for P1/S rather than his name.
I still can't quite get my head round this P1/S for PF sectors. I would log P1/S when doing a command conversion course, because you would be in the left hand seat acting as PIC under supervision.
But in the right hand seat, as PF, you might be handling and making some decisions, but your not PIC.
I don't get it.
I still can't quite get my head round this P1/S for PF sectors. I would log P1/S when doing a command conversion course, because you would be in the left hand seat acting as PIC under supervision.
But in the right hand seat, as PF, you might be handling and making some decisions, but your not PIC.
I don't get it.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 190
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From: uk
IMHO, it is wise to:
- Keep your logbook up to date all the time. It will save you a lot of time!
- Get your captains to sign your P1/US (Pilot Flying) entries. I know this could be a pain, but you will be able to take your paperwork straight to the authority without needing a letter from your company, etc....
- Keep your logbook up to date all the time. It will save you a lot of time!
- Get your captains to sign your P1/US (Pilot Flying) entries. I know this could be a pain, but you will be able to take your paperwork straight to the authority without needing a letter from your company, etc....
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,011
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From: Hampshire, UK
Good advice. Don't rely on anything from your company. Ask Oasis/XL/Futura pilots about that! Captains do not mind signing- remember they had to do it themselves! The Captains name ALWAYS goes in Commander box. It you are PF, I think you may log as P1u/s though some say you should not. I think if it is your leg and you take the decisions, then P1 time applies, though understand some disagree with that and say you should always log P2 unless you are THE Captain. I have heard that really only one person should log P1 for any flight.
I think it better to log each leg and time. Reason being that it is not unusual to be phoned with flight recorder queries or rockets, and exact information about times and places may get you off the hook.
In short, it seems there is not much hard and fast guidance. Common sense is enough.
I think it better to log each leg and time. Reason being that it is not unusual to be phoned with flight recorder queries or rockets, and exact information about times and places may get you off the hook.
In short, it seems there is not much hard and fast guidance. Common sense is enough.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 198
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From: cloud 9
Keep it up to date and legible! You never know when you might need to produce it - maybe for future employment. The S.E.Asian carrier that 411A refers to (I think) is well known for adding up each applicants log-book entries and delighting in pointing out an addition mistake some thousand of hours previously! Mine was 2 hours out 12 years ago! A correct log-book was a pre-requisite to advancement to the next stage of the interview process.
I have also had to refer back to my log-book with regard to an incident (I was able to say "t'was not me, I was elsewhere and not on that particular aircraft".
I have also had to refer back to my log-book with regard to an incident (I was able to say "t'was not me, I was elsewhere and not on that particular aircraft".
