A380 reverse thrust
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A380 reverse thrust
Is all the 4 engines in A380 has reverse thrust? Most of the time i only saw inner engine deployed the sleeve reverse thrust. I wonder if they dont equipped outer engines with the thrust or it's optional?
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A380 only has two thrust reversers, on the centre most engines, to reduce the likelihood of debris being kicked up by the outermost engines and ingested causing FOD.
I don't think the FAA would have insisted on reversers, their performance is not included in any RTO type of a rating. I suspect they are there purely to save brakes/tyres.
BHDH
I don't think the FAA would have insisted on reversers, their performance is not included in any RTO type of a rating. I suspect they are there purely to save brakes/tyres.
BHDH
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A380 Thrust Reverse
Diaz is correct ONLY on the Inbd's. We were told during our training that if airbus had their way there would not have been any at all, weight saving & considered not necessary. I did also here that it was regulators that forced the issue.
Moderator
MFS and I were discussing this recently .. there used to be a requirement for a 10 percent penalty (accel-stop only, if my recollection is correct) in one of the design standards if there were no reversers. Unfortunately, neither of us was able to locate the requirement so it is a bit of a question mark still ... either way, I have no doubt that the FAA would be applying an appropriate additional conservatism (to replace the real world additional conservatism which they would see in the reversers) .. if the bird didn't have them.
It is one thing not to schedule reversers .. it is another not to have them available to the crew ...
It is one thing not to schedule reversers .. it is another not to have them available to the crew ...
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As to the A-380 reversers - YES - only reversers on inboard engines.
xxx
Heard that it was for 2 reasons - weight saving (yes, maybe), and FOD since these engines will hang far outside of runways and taxiways... (???) What kind of justifications are these...?
xxx
Absence of reversers is not a problem. As mentioned, JAR/FAR 25 landing distance certification does not take reversers in account. There are/were airplanes without reversers - the early Caravelles, and the Fokker F-28s... and others (too old to remember).
xxx
I fly 747s (and teach pilots to fly them as well) and yes, in the 747, the outboard engines are far from centerline as well. Twenty years ago, my own 747 instructors told me to be careful about outboards and FOD... Now the A-380 guys get the same song and dance. Nothing ever changes...
xxx
So the practical considerations will remain the same. For me, they are -
Reversers are nice to cancel "residual (idle) thrust"...
That is the main inconvenience of jet engines. Even at idle, they "push" the plane quite a bit.
So I appreciate to be able to deploy reversers to block the idle thrust.
And...
Face it, FAR/JAR 25 or not, I like getting the help of my reversers for braking the plane.
There are times your brakes and wheels dont get the bite like test pilots got for certification.
I have landed on wet and slippery runways, and was happy to use reversers to stop my whale.
My slippery runway is always more slippery than the one test pilots had.
And I use these reversers "which are not needed for certification" until my GS is ZEERO KNOTS.
I am not a test pilot. My tires are probably older than they were on certification flights.
Maintenance told me that the tires are good for another 5 landings...
And so are my brakes. They are supposed to change the brakes "mañana".
Further, I am just an average pilot, not the "ace of the base" as these test pilots are.
Test pilots fly brand new planes. My 747 are about 25+ years of age.
xxx
The way I use reversers in the 747 is as follows (and the way I train "my guys").
I dont know how this will translate on the A-380.
When I touch down, I immediately go full reverse on inboards.
Then (half a second later) I deploy outboard reversers carefully in case one does not deploy.
Then around 60 KIAS, I reduce reverse on the inboards first.
Because the inboard reversers disrupts the engine inlet of the outboards which are further aft.
Then when the inboard are at idle reverse, I reduce reverse on outboards.
I keep all of them in idle reverse until taxi speed is achieved (20 Kts on INS).
xxx
I am curious to see how this will work with A-380s...
The inboard (only) in reverse will probably upset the inlets of outboards.
So, like I do in the 747, they will get out of reverse at 60 KIAS, or so.
After (say 60 KIAS), our majestic A-380 will have 4 x idle forward thrust.
I think these machines at idle must blow forward "better" than my hair dryer.
xxx
The only thing I admire of Airboos is... their brake fans...
I suppose they will have fans on A-380s... I wish 747s had brake fans.
xxx
I retire in 9 months - so I dont care... then upgrading to Check-SLF status.
And I rather drive my '91 Peugeot 205 for 2 days to go to the beach.
My mother-in-law gets an airline "pallet class" pass (cargo flight due to her weight/size).
I rather have my dog with me. My blue-eyed canine F/O...
He barks all dog SOPs check-lists ok, in Spanish, with Russian accent.
SOP - means standard ops. peepee... stop car, proceed to nearest tree, snif, raise leg, L/R option.
It is 5 recall items to be memorized by any well trained Husky.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Heard that it was for 2 reasons - weight saving (yes, maybe), and FOD since these engines will hang far outside of runways and taxiways... (???) What kind of justifications are these...?
xxx
Absence of reversers is not a problem. As mentioned, JAR/FAR 25 landing distance certification does not take reversers in account. There are/were airplanes without reversers - the early Caravelles, and the Fokker F-28s... and others (too old to remember).
xxx
I fly 747s (and teach pilots to fly them as well) and yes, in the 747, the outboard engines are far from centerline as well. Twenty years ago, my own 747 instructors told me to be careful about outboards and FOD... Now the A-380 guys get the same song and dance. Nothing ever changes...
xxx
So the practical considerations will remain the same. For me, they are -
Reversers are nice to cancel "residual (idle) thrust"...
That is the main inconvenience of jet engines. Even at idle, they "push" the plane quite a bit.
So I appreciate to be able to deploy reversers to block the idle thrust.
And...
Face it, FAR/JAR 25 or not, I like getting the help of my reversers for braking the plane.
There are times your brakes and wheels dont get the bite like test pilots got for certification.
I have landed on wet and slippery runways, and was happy to use reversers to stop my whale.
My slippery runway is always more slippery than the one test pilots had.
And I use these reversers "which are not needed for certification" until my GS is ZEERO KNOTS.
I am not a test pilot. My tires are probably older than they were on certification flights.
Maintenance told me that the tires are good for another 5 landings...
And so are my brakes. They are supposed to change the brakes "mañana".
Further, I am just an average pilot, not the "ace of the base" as these test pilots are.
Test pilots fly brand new planes. My 747 are about 25+ years of age.
xxx
The way I use reversers in the 747 is as follows (and the way I train "my guys").
I dont know how this will translate on the A-380.
When I touch down, I immediately go full reverse on inboards.
Then (half a second later) I deploy outboard reversers carefully in case one does not deploy.
Then around 60 KIAS, I reduce reverse on the inboards first.
Because the inboard reversers disrupts the engine inlet of the outboards which are further aft.
Then when the inboard are at idle reverse, I reduce reverse on outboards.
I keep all of them in idle reverse until taxi speed is achieved (20 Kts on INS).
xxx
I am curious to see how this will work with A-380s...
The inboard (only) in reverse will probably upset the inlets of outboards.
So, like I do in the 747, they will get out of reverse at 60 KIAS, or so.
After (say 60 KIAS), our majestic A-380 will have 4 x idle forward thrust.
I think these machines at idle must blow forward "better" than my hair dryer.
xxx
The only thing I admire of Airboos is... their brake fans...
I suppose they will have fans on A-380s... I wish 747s had brake fans.
xxx
I retire in 9 months - so I dont care... then upgrading to Check-SLF status.
And I rather drive my '91 Peugeot 205 for 2 days to go to the beach.
My mother-in-law gets an airline "pallet class" pass (cargo flight due to her weight/size).
I rather have my dog with me. My blue-eyed canine F/O...
He barks all dog SOPs check-lists ok, in Spanish, with Russian accent.
SOP - means standard ops. peepee... stop car, proceed to nearest tree, snif, raise leg, L/R option.
It is 5 recall items to be memorized by any well trained Husky.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Going back 20 years maybe -
Wasn't the original plan for A340-500 & 600 to have NO reversers? I seem to recall this in their marketing material. Obviously customers preferred otherwise.
Wasn't the original plan for A340-500 & 600 to have NO reversers? I seem to recall this in their marketing material. Obviously customers preferred otherwise.
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Air Force - no reversers
Hola Barit...
xxx
The most notorious opponents of reversers is the USAF...
None of their machines have reversers. The generals say NO...
Maybe yes, one or two... so someone will say "you are wrong, BelArg...!"
As far as I know, when the AF gets a civilian plane, they secure the reversers to be INOP...
At least it is was what I was told in the 1960s and 70s...
xxx
I love to do "aerodynamic braking, AF style", and keep nose high´until it falls.
That, plus reversers together.
Everybody says "you gonna hit the tail, one of these days".
So far, has not happened in 23,000 hrs...
I will have another 10 or 20 landings, then is... retirement.
Honest, the odds are, I will not scrape the tail... sorry.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
The most notorious opponents of reversers is the USAF...
None of their machines have reversers. The generals say NO...
Maybe yes, one or two... so someone will say "you are wrong, BelArg...!"
As far as I know, when the AF gets a civilian plane, they secure the reversers to be INOP...
At least it is was what I was told in the 1960s and 70s...
xxx
I love to do "aerodynamic braking, AF style", and keep nose high´until it falls.
That, plus reversers together.
Everybody says "you gonna hit the tail, one of these days".
So far, has not happened in 23,000 hrs...
I will have another 10 or 20 landings, then is... retirement.
Honest, the odds are, I will not scrape the tail... sorry.
xxx
Happy contrails
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a 380 reversers
yes FOD is the major issue to have those 1 and 4 reverser not installed.However I asked the same question to A 380 chief test pilot, Terry Lutz, his answer was "our Vref is 120kt, no need for extra reverser or extra breaking power, actually we imput our exit target and the plane slow down accordlingly!"
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Perhaps reversers have got something to do with landing on a contaminated runway and they are required for the purpose of certification? I am not sure on A380 but certainly has some performance penalties on A340-300. Again, I could be wrong.
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From November 98,
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchi...0-%203069.html
Airbus may ditch A3XX thrust reversers to slow down costs
AIRBUS INDUSTRIE is discussing with airlines a plan to remove the thrust reversers from its A3XX ultra-high capacity airliner design as part of efforts to further reduce the aircraft's direct operating costs.
Airlines have generally reacted favourably towards the idea of dropping the system from the outboard engines only, but remain cautious over scrapping them altogether, say manufacturing sources.
"Current planning envisages having thrust reversers on just the two inboard engines, and the justification for that is that, through improvements in efficiency, we can achieve a stopping distance that is similar to existing four-engined aircraft such as the A340 and 747," says Airbus. "We are looking at whether we need thrust reversers at all but no decision has been taken,"
the consortium confirms.
Dropping the thrust reversers would save a significant amount of weight and reduce engine-associated maintenance costs, says British Aerospace Airbus director of engineering, Jeff Jupp. These benefits, he points out, have to be
balanced against the increased brake wear that would occur during the landing run and the perceived safety implications.
AIRBUS INDUSTRIE is discussing with airlines a plan to remove the thrust reversers from its A3XX ultra-high capacity airliner design as part of efforts to further reduce the aircraft's direct operating costs.
Airlines have generally reacted favourably towards the idea of dropping the system from the outboard engines only, but remain cautious over scrapping them altogether, say manufacturing sources.
"Current planning envisages having thrust reversers on just the two inboard engines, and the justification for that is that, through improvements in efficiency, we can achieve a stopping distance that is similar to existing four-engined aircraft such as the A340 and 747," says Airbus. "We are looking at whether we need thrust reversers at all but no decision has been taken,"
the consortium confirms.
Dropping the thrust reversers would save a significant amount of weight and reduce engine-associated maintenance costs, says British Aerospace Airbus director of engineering, Jeff Jupp. These benefits, he points out, have to be
balanced against the increased brake wear that would occur during the landing run and the perceived safety implications.
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I can't believe Airbus went ahead with the daft idea of only 2 reversers. You'd think that after 2 accidents in a single year, they'd realize that brakes have limitations
Does anybody know if outboard reversers will at least be an option?
Does anybody know if outboard reversers will at least be an option?
Last edited by Check Airman; 4th Feb 2008 at 16:51.
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How many reversers does a 777 have? Are you suggesting that it's unsafe because it only has two?
Last edited by moggiee; 4th Feb 2008 at 13:45.
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"...perceived safety implications."
Mr. Jupp might use a different word than "perceived" if he was responsible for putting the airplane onto JFK's 4R with braking action less than "good".
Mr. Jupp might use a different word than "perceived" if he was responsible for putting the airplane onto JFK's 4R with braking action less than "good".
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How many reversers does a 777 have? Are you suggesting that it's unsafe because it only has two?
Of course that's what I'm saying. Doesn't it follow logically? I'll never set foot on a 777 until it has four reversers
Of course that's what I'm saying. Doesn't it follow logically? I'll never set foot on a 777 until it has four reversers
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all the answers clear up the air..thank you very much.
However what are the chances that the bus will stop in time if no reversers deployed?
Petal or sleeve reverse thrust? Which one's more efficient?
However what are the chances that the bus will stop in time if no reversers deployed?
Petal or sleeve reverse thrust? Which one's more efficient?
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Reversers-lack of,
The old Caravelles had no reversers but a rather nice detachable brake parachute-we ran over one once in a Vanguard after landing at LHR on 05 at night!
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On the mention of brake fans- I remember someone mentioning that after some heavy landings the 380 has to have huge fans placed blowing on the wheels if you want a rapid turn-around. Just what I heard!
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However what are the chances that the bus will stop in time if no reversers deployed?
I guess it would be the same for any plane. I'm not sure if the data is in the manuals, but I've seen diagrams comparing stopping distances on various runway surfaces, and it takes a LOT of runway to stop a plane with just spoilers. Remember, the brakes won't be very useful, and the jet engines are still producing thrust, even at idle.
I guess it would be the same for any plane. I'm not sure if the data is in the manuals, but I've seen diagrams comparing stopping distances on various runway surfaces, and it takes a LOT of runway to stop a plane with just spoilers. Remember, the brakes won't be very useful, and the jet engines are still producing thrust, even at idle.
