PAR

[CRC]

Situation:
Operating to an airfield in a Middle Eastern FIR whose State's Civil Aviation Authority's sovereign right to manage its airspace has been usurped by a foreign military power.
The GP element of the ILS serving said airfield is U/S. There exists a published PAR approach but it is annotated "not for civil use" - the service is provided by military equipment and operators. Request to the ANS provider and the military to provide a one off exemption to the civil operator to be provided a PAR service is vetoed by a FAA field officer who claims civil pilots are not trained to fly PAR approaches!
Question 1:- Is there anyone out there who flies PAR approaches on commercial civil ops on a regular basis?
Question 2: - Does a State's aviation licensing authority mandate flight testing and subsequent aircrew license instrument rating with an endorsement to be able to fly PAR approaches?
Question 3: - Are there any mandated currency requirements to be met by civil aircrew prior to flying a PAR approach?

[SpringbokDreamer]

I quite regularly fly PAR approaches down to minima at a military airfield for a civil outfit carrying pax...
Bloody Good Fun!!!! There's no other inclusion in my log book or licence etc..

On G-**** reg Acft into EG** Airfields

ie, British Acft to British field

[yrvld]

You can fly a PAR with a regular Instrument rating on your license. Not a problem, PAR is no different that a cat I ILS, even regarding minimums, usually.. Can fly them commercially too, as long as the approach is published in your applicable co. route manual (OM-C, jepp charts, AIP, etc), of course.

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by yrvld

You can fly a PAR with a regular Instrument rating on your license. Not a problem, PAR is no different that a cat I ILS, even regarding minimums, usually. Can fly them commercially too, as long as the approach is published in your applicable co. route manual (OM-C, jepp charts, AIP, etc), of course.

…well, its not quite that simple, actually … in the US, the approaches you are authorized to fly have to be specified in your Operations Specifications (Ops Specs - issued by the FAA), you have to have the appropriate reference materials (Jepp charts, etc.) on board, and you have to have been trained to fly the approaches you are authorized to fly. There have been US certificated operators, operating under part 121, who regularly flew PAR approaches – but the PAR was in their Ops Specs, they carried the appropriate charts, and they trained on PARs. These operators were authorized because they did quite a bit of military charter work into and out of military-only airfields where PARs were regularly used.

[BelArgUSA]

PAR at Keflavik

Last one I flew was landing at Keflavik - BIKF... early 1980s..
Was with a 707-320B, under FAR 121, PAR was listed in our Ops. Specs...
Courtesy of US Navy... minimums were 200-1/2...
We saw the runway coming close to minimums, perfectly aligned and on glide path.
They claimed to be able to talk a plane down with zero/zero conditions...
xxx
If I recall well, "they" often offered to give you a PAR...
To give them practice, they too needed to stay current...
xxx

Happy contrails

[CRC]

Thanks Guys and Gals.
Pretty much as I thought.
As an civil ATCO in the early 70's I regularily provided PAR approaches to civil operators into a civil field in Kiwiland/Downunder (prior to the installation of ILS) and also often sat rightside as saftey pilot to mates who were flying them whilst practicing IFR in VMC , and although never going for an IFR rating myself don't recall any of them having to have their IFR ratings endorsed for PAR ability. But then times may have changed. I suspect the the FAA regulations are at diiference to most other State regulators requirements (or in this case lack thereof).
Again. Thanks for your inputs...

[chevvron]

Shirley if you're not flying an 'N' registered aircraft, FAA regs don't apply? At my airfield, all commercial civil operators of all registrations used to fly PAR's even when we had LLZ/DME installed; we simply established them on the LLZ and gave them GP guidance from PAR. PAR was withdrawn when we had GP installed on the ILS.

[Dream Land]

Can you fly this plane and land it?
Ted Striker: Surely you can't be serious.
Dr. Rumack: I am serious, and don't call me Shirley

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[onehundred]

And yes, the PAR has to be flight tested periodically

100

[Dream Land]

And yes, the PAR has to be flight tested periodically

Really, please go on...

[onehundred]

here at our air force bases twice a year how it says in our regulations.
I don't know yours

100

[bfisk]

Did ask for one several times in during my CFI time in the US, at the one (military) airfield we happened to be close to. Were told that we would be allowed to do so until a missed approach, but we wouldn't be allowed to touch. However the PAR controller was unavailable at that time, but we were invited back. However at that point in time I was flying with a PPL student... and so on. Never did get to do one =(

(We did ASR approaches on a regular basis though, most controllers were happy to get the practice)

[Bobbsy]

Down here in Aus, we've had the "pleasure" of seeing that ancient "Airport" film on TV over the holidays.

If the FAA allows Dean Martin to fly a PAR approach, surely (or is it Shirley?) you professionals should be able to as well?

I'll get my coat.

Bobbsy

[chevvron]

The 'Discovery' satellite TV channel occasionally airs a programme about the ' N' reg Challenger 604 bizjet which does a PAR with a civil crew on board; refer the FAA field officer to this.

[Dream Land]

Chevvron, not sure why you think that's a problem, most operators have PAR in their OP SPECS.

[chevvron]

S'not me that has a problem; it's the attitude of the FAA Field officer who says civil pilots are not trained to fly PARs.

[Dream Land]

Simulated PAR approaches standard in our training syllabus (121).

[Intruder]

Also in ours, because we fly military contract flights (747).

I've flown a few of them, mostly when USAF controllers ask if we will do it for their training/currency.

[411A]

The old(er) civil Westinghouse PAR equipment had superb accuracy, five feet up/down on the glidepath, same laterally.
However, as these had (according to one PAR operator I met at KLAX many years ago) 135 vacuum tubes (valves for you UK folks) it became very expensive to maintain...so away it went, west.

And yes, PAR was used during the Berlin airlift by USAF C-54 pilots...complete blind landings were possible, and I personally know one retired USAF Colonel/FAA inspector) who has done this many times...
Great fun, apparently.

[low n' slow]

Another interesting aspect seems to be which rules apply in this airspace. For sake of argument, lets say that it's the US air force that has taken over the skies, does that automatically say that the FAA regulates everything civil?
Point being that if it's not FAR and you don't have an N reg plane, I should think there's no problem. Like many others on this forum, I also fly PAR's on a regular basis and I don't have a special endorsement, it's an IFR procedure like all the others.
Perhaps it's the fact that the controllers are american and that it's their equipment that is the decisive factor in reality...

/LnS