Challenger Crash Almaty
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there is nothing wrong with that. Having had another 'life' before flying does not hurt nor does it imply anything about the skills of the applicable airman.
Again, I don't want to imply anything, much less putting blame on the deceased pilot before any facts are on the table. So no need to call back my horses.
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Well, if he wasn´t policing, he didn´t have a double job, did he?
"This was not about having a prior life, but rather a double job. At least that's what the newspaper reports said: That he was still employed as a police officer, though not on active duty due to health issues."
There are lots of Doctors, Laywers, Policemen, you name it, out there freelancing. As long as they are checked out properly - no prob IMO.
The health issues that would prevent you from policing, but allow you flying - I´d be very interested to learn what that could have been...
For the sake of the surviving captain, I just hope they deiced. The question is, how many people were around the airplane during that stop - and at least the deicer crew and the handler should be able to tell if they deiced or not. And what fluid/type was used.
Does one get a "no takeoff" in the CL604 if trim runs out of range ? I´d think you would. And would it be posted with the contimantion prob?
"This was not about having a prior life, but rather a double job. At least that's what the newspaper reports said: That he was still employed as a police officer, though not on active duty due to health issues."
There are lots of Doctors, Laywers, Policemen, you name it, out there freelancing. As long as they are checked out properly - no prob IMO.
The health issues that would prevent you from policing, but allow you flying - I´d be very interested to learn what that could have been...
For the sake of the surviving captain, I just hope they deiced. The question is, how many people were around the airplane during that stop - and at least the deicer crew and the handler should be able to tell if they deiced or not. And what fluid/type was used.
Does one get a "no takeoff" in the CL604 if trim runs out of range ? I´d think you would. And would it be posted with the contimantion prob?
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For those speculating on stab trim issues, be aware that all the Challenger 604 fleet (including I presume this aircraft) were already retrofitted with new HSTCUs to address the contamination issue, as reported in this week's Flight, prior to this accident.
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I understand from rumours (very reliable source !) in Germany than the de-icing truck ran out of which ever type fluid they were using and that the right wing may have been de-iced using water only not 50/50 mix or whatever. It will be interesting to see if they did have problems
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de-icing truck ran out of which ever type fluid they were using
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Got about 4000 hrs on CRJ & we used to find lots of very thick clear ice on the UNDERwing after having landed in cold temps (melt & Run back ice), even when the overwing was clear. I used to go around scraping it off with a plastic ruler. De-icing trucks can find it very difficult to de-ice under the wing. Warm fuel can help but can cause melt & re-freeze (harder to see)if the ice is not removed physically after it starts to melt.
I once picked up a brand new one at montreal & on the acceptance flight test the Bombardier test pilot said they could already measure the diference in wing efficiency from the first flight of the aircraft due to flies & stuff on the leading edge. That is how unforgiving this wing is. I would never be tempted to go one second over minimum holdover on this A/C.
I once picked up a brand new one at montreal & on the acceptance flight test the Bombardier test pilot said they could already measure the diference in wing efficiency from the first flight of the aircraft due to flies & stuff on the leading edge. That is how unforgiving this wing is. I would never be tempted to go one second over minimum holdover on this A/C.
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Authorities in Kasachstan boycot German and Canadian accident investigators
Sources close to the only surviving cockpit crewmember indicate, that Kasachstan’s Authorities hastily destroyed the remaining de-icing fluids that were used during the night of the accident. They apparently neither allowed foreign investigators to take samples of the fluid, nor did they allow them to collect a sample of the accident aircraft’s structure for further metallurgical analysis…
Russia’s MAK is still in possession of the flight data and cockpit voice recorders, but do not grant German or Canadian Authorities access to them for detailed data readout.
What could be the reason for this? Why did the airport manager already a few weeks ago in a ‘preliminary report’ publicly announce pilot error to be the probable cause? Why is Kasachstan so eager to point into the direction of the crew?
Something’s awfully wrong here.
Russia’s MAK is still in possession of the flight data and cockpit voice recorders, but do not grant German or Canadian Authorities access to them for detailed data readout.
What could be the reason for this? Why did the airport manager already a few weeks ago in a ‘preliminary report’ publicly announce pilot error to be the probable cause? Why is Kasachstan so eager to point into the direction of the crew?
Something’s awfully wrong here.
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Originally Posted by jetopa
Sources close to the only surviving cockpit crewmember indicate, that Kasachstan’s Authorities hastily destroyed the remaining de-icing fluids that were used during the night of the accident. They apparently neither allowed foreign investigators to take samples of the fluid, nor did they allow them to collect a sample of the accident aircraft’s structure for further metallurgical analysis…
Originally Posted by jetopa
Russia’s MAK is still in possession of the flight data and cockpit voice recorders, but do not grant German or Canadian Authorities access to them for detailed data readout.
PBL
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This thread is going nowhere, as many others. The 604 is a good aircraft, with a fabulous wing. As with any other swept wing bird you don't take chances with ice, you watch your speed and you don't overrotate. Anyone with 20-30 hours on the plane will have learned to respect the above three. Any pilot within Europe is well versed with its handling in all above three scenarios especially in icing. Whatever reason the Russians ultimately give for the accident will be backed up by scientific data or else it will have no merit. Lets wait and see what comes out.
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Lesson 1 in how to keep a thread active when there have been two posts in the last month and little new info: post a message saying the thread is going nowhere.
Lesson 2 in how to keep a thread active when there have been three posts in the last month: post a message pointing out Lesson 1.
PBL
Lesson 2 in how to keep a thread active when there have been three posts in the last month: post a message pointing out Lesson 1.
PBL
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The 604 is a good aircraft, with a fabulous wing. As with any other swept wing bird you don't take chances with ice, you watch your speed and you don't overrotate.
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the de-icing fluid remains the problem
@ cldrvr:
I think that this is misleading. Maybe the Chellenger / Canadair Jet series aircraft are particularly sensitive to any contamination of frozen precip, and this remains to be taken a very close look at. The number of accidents / incidents with this type of airplane is worrying, to say the least.
But: there was a problem with the de-icing service at Almaty. It took the ground crew 3 attempts to bring a truck with a functioning spray nozzle. And looking at the actual weather that fateful night, applying nothing would probably have resulted in an uneventful takeoff.
I was told that a Swiss Global Express crew just recently (after the crash in Dec.) orderered de-icing there. Looking at his airplane in disbelief, the pilot saw ice hanging down from the stabilizer (like in those deep caves) after the de-icing crew was done. The ground crew also had applied the fluid from the trailing edge, because they said they couldn't get to it from the other side...
The fact, that Kasachstan is - sort of - sabotaging an independent accident investigation, could leave the impression that they have something to hide.
And to PBL:
I don't think that this tread is leading nowhere either. As long as the cause for this sad accident hasn't been found, nobody in the flying community can be sure, that a comparable scenario won't happen to them or their friend / colleague again.
I think that this is misleading. Maybe the Chellenger / Canadair Jet series aircraft are particularly sensitive to any contamination of frozen precip, and this remains to be taken a very close look at. The number of accidents / incidents with this type of airplane is worrying, to say the least.
But: there was a problem with the de-icing service at Almaty. It took the ground crew 3 attempts to bring a truck with a functioning spray nozzle. And looking at the actual weather that fateful night, applying nothing would probably have resulted in an uneventful takeoff.
I was told that a Swiss Global Express crew just recently (after the crash in Dec.) orderered de-icing there. Looking at his airplane in disbelief, the pilot saw ice hanging down from the stabilizer (like in those deep caves) after the de-icing crew was done. The ground crew also had applied the fluid from the trailing edge, because they said they couldn't get to it from the other side...
The fact, that Kasachstan is - sort of - sabotaging an independent accident investigation, could leave the impression that they have something to hide.
And to PBL:
I don't think that this tread is leading nowhere either. As long as the cause for this sad accident hasn't been found, nobody in the flying community can be sure, that a comparable scenario won't happen to them or their friend / colleague again.
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I was told that a Swiss Global Express crew just recently (after the crash in Dec.) orderered de-icing there. Looking at his airplane in disbelief, the pilot saw ice hanging down from the stabilizer (like in those deep caves) after the de-icing crew was done. The ground crew also had applied the fluid from the trailing edge, because they said they couldn't get to it from the other side...
Last edited by punkalouver; 5th Mar 2008 at 13:31. Reason: editorial
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Increased V speeds techniique is available in the AFM and these are there to increase the climb gradient for obstacle clearance NOT contaminated wings
Increase
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Absolutely!!!
Aircraft Vspeeds are designed based on runway performance and are significantly lower then the speed for best climb gradient, the speed for best rate is greater again, in most cases
All larger aircraft, including the 604, have optimum (greater) V speed tables to increase climb gradient.
CL
Aircraft Vspeeds are designed based on runway performance and are significantly lower then the speed for best climb gradient, the speed for best rate is greater again, in most cases
All larger aircraft, including the 604, have optimum (greater) V speed tables to increase climb gradient.
CL
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Not the 604, I'm afraid. I believe it's already been suggested earlier in the thread as something people would like.
The following is the list of sections for the relevant part of Chapter 6, Performance, from the 605 Flight Manual (which, other than formatting, is basically the same as the 604)
None of those are for increased V speeds for improved climb gradient. All of the charts and procedures for determining speeds have a single result for a given set of conditions; there's no option to vary, say, V2. There's also no "overspeed supplement" to the AFM, as some other Bombardier Aircraft have.
The following is the list of sections for the relevant part of Chapter 6, Performance, from the 605 Flight Manual (which, other than formatting, is basically the same as the 604)
TAKE-OFF PERFORMANCE
Introduction 06−03−1
Maximum Allowable Take-Off Weight 06−03−1
Take-Off Weight Limited By Climb Requirements – Flaps 20° 06−03−2
Take-Off Weight Limited By Brake Energy – Flaps 20° 06−03−6
Take-Off Weight Limited by Maximum Tire Speed 06−03−8
Take-Off Distance 06−03−10
Take-Off Distance, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−10
Take-Off Distance, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−13
Take-Off Speeds 06−03−16
Minimum V1 Limited By Control on the Ground – V1MCG 06−03−16
Take-Off Decision Speed, V1 – Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−18
Take-Off Decision Speed, V1 – Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−20
Rotation Speed, VR, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−22
Rotation Speed, VR, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−24
Take-Off Safety Speed, V2 – Flaps 20° 06−03−26
Maximum Allowable Brake Temperature For Take-Off 06−03−28
Adjustments for Extended Second Segment Climb 06−03−28
Introduction 06−03−1
Maximum Allowable Take-Off Weight 06−03−1
Take-Off Weight Limited By Climb Requirements – Flaps 20° 06−03−2
Take-Off Weight Limited By Brake Energy – Flaps 20° 06−03−6
Take-Off Weight Limited by Maximum Tire Speed 06−03−8
Take-Off Distance 06−03−10
Take-Off Distance, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−10
Take-Off Distance, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−13
Take-Off Speeds 06−03−16
Minimum V1 Limited By Control on the Ground – V1MCG 06−03−16
Take-Off Decision Speed, V1 – Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−18
Take-Off Decision Speed, V1 – Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−20
Rotation Speed, VR, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing Off 06−03−22
Rotation Speed, VR, Flaps 20° – Anti-Icing On 06−03−24
Take-Off Safety Speed, V2 – Flaps 20° 06−03−26
Maximum Allowable Brake Temperature For Take-Off 06−03−28
Adjustments for Extended Second Segment Climb 06−03−28
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Yeah but no but...
Punkalouve raises a very good point.
I know of at least one incident in the west, UK actually, last year where de-icing was less than thorough, with significant snow and ice left in place on both wings.
Chances are, if its happened once, it can happen again.
With that in mind I always do my own post de-icing inspection, but, whilst I can see the wings I cannot see the top of the Stab and have to trust that the de-icing crew, and regardless of how competant I think they are, it leaves that slight element of doubt..........
I know of at least one incident in the west, UK actually, last year where de-icing was less than thorough, with significant snow and ice left in place on both wings.
Chances are, if its happened once, it can happen again.
With that in mind I always do my own post de-icing inspection, but, whilst I can see the wings I cannot see the top of the Stab and have to trust that the de-icing crew, and regardless of how competant I think they are, it leaves that slight element of doubt..........
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At some point you have to trust the people doing the right stuff, they should be the experts within there job. With Hold over Time running, I can't go out and check the Anti Icing in bad weather. Should I also check, if the JetA1 is contaminated with water?
If I didn't trust my dentist or lawyer, I change 'em. But changeing an refuelling spot, due to a bad feeling, is a little bit complicated to explain to the company,
I simply hate going east, espacially in wintertime.
Hope they didn't nail the crew.
Cheers
If I didn't trust my dentist or lawyer, I change 'em. But changeing an refuelling spot, due to a bad feeling, is a little bit complicated to explain to the company,
I simply hate going east, espacially in wintertime.
Hope they didn't nail the crew.
Cheers
