Why are we still using ILS?
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why are we still using ILS?
There have been initiatives for quite some time to use GPS for precision approaches. The benefits are obvious - you can have an 'ILS' for any runway you like whether or not it has a genuine one and whether or not it is serviceable. I believe the CAA are dabbling with non-precision approaches but are you aware of bolder moves? What might be holding things up?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because there will be temperature limitations with PRNAV Arrivals and GNSS/RNPRnav approaches.
Because it's taking ages for the national authorities to grant approvals to do them.
Because not every aircraft is yet equipped with GPS and a capable-enough FMGC/FMS.
Because GPS is not accurate enough. GNSS/RNPRNav approaches are NPA.
How do you fancy doing a CATIII in 75m RVR with GPS? I don't.
Will that do?
Because it's taking ages for the national authorities to grant approvals to do them.
Because not every aircraft is yet equipped with GPS and a capable-enough FMGC/FMS.
Because GPS is not accurate enough. GNSS/RNPRNav approaches are NPA.
How do you fancy doing a CATIII in 75m RVR with GPS? I don't.
Will that do?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As has already been said. GPS approaches aren't anywhere near mature enough to consider changing from an ILS.
ILS' are under control of the authority, can be easily calibrated and are more accurate.
Simple really!
ILS' are under control of the authority, can be easily calibrated and are more accurate.
Simple really!
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably because the Americans weren't getting their way with MLS, so they decided to kill it by saying that GPS would be the preferred successor to ILS
Bear in mind that with ILS/MLS, you are constantly flying closer to the transmitter the lower you get hence the guidance signal gets stronger and more accurate, whereas with GPS, you are moving away from an already weak signal, and if you're in a mountainous area, one or more satellites might suddenly go below your horizon, thus degrading the accuracy of the signal.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Instrument Landing System was conceived in 1938 by Sperry and Reed Pigman (jointly) and has proven to be very precise over the years, and is a known quantity...very important for aircraft navigation.
GPS on the other hand, does indeed have its limitations, and especially so with precision approaches.
The wide area augmentation system is being implemented in the USA now, and indeed one can equip the aircraft today with this kit.
WAAS provides VNAV for many GPS approaches, thus allowing lower minimums.
LAAS will provide landing minima to corresponding CATI ILS minima if trials now in progress are successful.
Now, many outside the USA generaly tend to throw verbal stones at GPS, and the simple reason is...they suffer from the 'not invented here' syndrome, and of course that is their problem...and they are welcome to it.
Stand alone GPS sets, however successful they have proven over the years, need to be treated with a good deal of respect, just as you might with a modern FMS, and the old saying 'garbage in-garbage out' is just as applicable...they require careful detailed operator programmimg to function properly and reliably.
In short, don't expect ILS to disappear anytime soon.
GPS on the other hand, does indeed have its limitations, and especially so with precision approaches.
The wide area augmentation system is being implemented in the USA now, and indeed one can equip the aircraft today with this kit.
WAAS provides VNAV for many GPS approaches, thus allowing lower minimums.
LAAS will provide landing minima to corresponding CATI ILS minima if trials now in progress are successful.
Now, many outside the USA generaly tend to throw verbal stones at GPS, and the simple reason is...they suffer from the 'not invented here' syndrome, and of course that is their problem...and they are welcome to it.
Stand alone GPS sets, however successful they have proven over the years, need to be treated with a good deal of respect, just as you might with a modern FMS, and the old saying 'garbage in-garbage out' is just as applicable...they require careful detailed operator programmimg to function properly and reliably.
In short, don't expect ILS to disappear anytime soon.
To get even Cat 1 capability with GPS, you need ground augmentation of the GPS signal. That means a ground station near the airport. As for cat 2 and 3, you'll be waiting for a long time methinks.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think WAAS currently provides Cat I whereas LAAS will give Cat III.
I of course accept ILS will be kept for those runways that can justify the cost but it's sad the authorities throw away the >99.9% benefits of GPS just because of the <0.1% chance of non performance. Approved units report loss of necessary accuracy if it occurs and have means of ensuring co-ordinates are correctly stored.
Incidentally I recall, many years ago on a crude version of Flight Simulator, an ILS display that was a series of moving squares that defined a virtual tube in the sky. The squares would keep coming past you, so you were trying to position yourself in the middle of each square as you 'flew' through it. If, for example, if you were too low the squares would pass 'above' you until you pulled your self back up into the glidepath whereupon you would be going down the middle of them again. It always struck me as rather better than crossed needles. The beauty of such a display is it could define curved approach paths as you could see the position of the glidepath ahead whereas needles only tell you were you are right now.
I of course accept ILS will be kept for those runways that can justify the cost but it's sad the authorities throw away the >99.9% benefits of GPS just because of the <0.1% chance of non performance. Approved units report loss of necessary accuracy if it occurs and have means of ensuring co-ordinates are correctly stored.
Incidentally I recall, many years ago on a crude version of Flight Simulator, an ILS display that was a series of moving squares that defined a virtual tube in the sky. The squares would keep coming past you, so you were trying to position yourself in the middle of each square as you 'flew' through it. If, for example, if you were too low the squares would pass 'above' you until you pulled your self back up into the glidepath whereupon you would be going down the middle of them again. It always struck me as rather better than crossed needles. The beauty of such a display is it could define curved approach paths as you could see the position of the glidepath ahead whereas needles only tell you were you are right now.
I was under the impression that ground augmentation stations (for GPS) have a long range, and so don't need to be "near" the approach being flown.
Pity that MLS got killed off, really. It had some practical difficulties, and conversion was going to be expensive on the ground and in the aircraft, to put it mildly.
But it has huge benefits over GPS, mostly mentioned above in one way or another; accuracy and not being subject to deliberate degradation are two, and the more efficient use of airspace being another. Every time I see the straight line of landing lights approaching LHR for several miles I wonder why we still operate so inefficiently.
Pity that MLS got killed off, really. It had some practical difficulties, and conversion was going to be expensive on the ground and in the aircraft, to put it mildly.
But it has huge benefits over GPS, mostly mentioned above in one way or another; accuracy and not being subject to deliberate degradation are two, and the more efficient use of airspace being another. Every time I see the straight line of landing lights approaching LHR for several miles I wonder why we still operate so inefficiently.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think WAAS currently provides Cat I whereas LAAS will give Cat III.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course has GPS its limitations, as has MLS. But you can be sure, if it would have advantages, it would be postulated, classified and certified tomorrow. There is hardly any weather you cannot land with Cat III, so what's the use of another system?
Dani
Dani
have now undertaken
what's the use of another system?
Pegase Driver
411A , I seem to remember that the principles of ILS were German, by Lorenz if my memory is good, and was used during WWII by them.
CATIII GPS is still a long way away and may cost more than ILS, since the US do no need/want CATIII.
A few remarks :
Will GPS continue to be free of charge once the US military have no more use of it ? Will Galileo ( the European GPS replacement ) be free of charge ?
Accuracy is only one of the pre-requisite for a guidance system. Reliability and integrity are others.
The long-range future xLS may well be an hybrid EGPWS/GPS/ Forward looking IR system.
CATIII GPS is still a long way away and may cost more than ILS, since the US do no need/want CATIII.
A few remarks :
Will GPS continue to be free of charge once the US military have no more use of it ? Will Galileo ( the European GPS replacement ) be free of charge ?
Accuracy is only one of the pre-requisite for a guidance system. Reliability and integrity are others.
The long-range future xLS may well be an hybrid EGPWS/GPS/ Forward looking IR system.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 38
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot on - the ability to turn on Selective Availability was switched off by an Executive Order in May 2000. That doesn't mean that the ability has been physically removed from the current satellites; however any new ones to be launched will be unable to transmit an SA encoded signal.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GPS precision approaches will definitely be useful, but I don't think they should or will replace ILS. In addition to many of the valid arguments above, a failure of the system can affect a very large area, whereas if an ILS fails, it's pretty much limited to that airport or runway.