Question for A-320 drivers
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Question for A-320 drivers
Many a times I have seen pilots pulling speed or vertical speed to get to the cleared altitude faster during the climb out. My own understanding is that one should let the speed stay "managed' as this would be the most efficient way of getting up there. At times there is a tail wind component and pilots feel that if they get up there faster, they will benefit more.
Hope someone will clear this up.
Hope someone will clear this up.
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Many possible reasons. Penetrating through the clouds quicker ( Pax. comfort ), maybe the flight is late so the PF wishes to catch up some time.
Managed climb and speed is set by FMGS according to many factors, and although it is the best profile for normal operation, it is not always the most practical setting.
Hope this helps, and am sure you will get more answers
Managed climb and speed is set by FMGS according to many factors, and although it is the best profile for normal operation, it is not always the most practical setting.
Hope this helps, and am sure you will get more answers
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@Davidils201
Thanks. May I clarify that the weather is not a factor and can you elaborate as to how can you save time this way because although you have climbed faster but now have a greater distance to cover.
Thanks. May I clarify that the weather is not a factor and can you elaborate as to how can you save time this way because although you have climbed faster but now have a greater distance to cover.
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Dutch & German ATC often give you min rates of climb/descent to maintain so that's another reason.
I have heard a rumour that certain unscrupulous individuals have also been known to operate in V/S mode in climb or descent because they want to sneak above 250 kt below 10,000 ft, without getting hassle from ATC.
Because the speed ATC "see" is the one that's selected, and because V/S mode has priority over selected speed mode, if you select 250 kts on the speed but also select a suitable rate of climb on the V/S, and manually select climb thrust, it will accelerate below 10,000', still with 250 kt selected.
It's even easier in descent, because you don't have to manually set the thrust, as long as you have selected a decent ROD ( >2000 FPM), it will maintain the high speed right up to alt capture and once again all that ATC see, apparently, is the selected 250.
Sounds kind of b*****ks to me, but that's the way it's been explained to me by a couple of guys I've flown with anyway.
I have heard a rumour that certain unscrupulous individuals have also been known to operate in V/S mode in climb or descent because they want to sneak above 250 kt below 10,000 ft, without getting hassle from ATC.
Because the speed ATC "see" is the one that's selected, and because V/S mode has priority over selected speed mode, if you select 250 kts on the speed but also select a suitable rate of climb on the V/S, and manually select climb thrust, it will accelerate below 10,000', still with 250 kt selected.
It's even easier in descent, because you don't have to manually set the thrust, as long as you have selected a decent ROD ( >2000 FPM), it will maintain the high speed right up to alt capture and once again all that ATC see, apparently, is the selected 250.
Sounds kind of b*****ks to me, but that's the way it's been explained to me by a couple of guys I've flown with anyway.
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Thats a bit complicated! Out of Heathrow ATC will often clear you to a higher altitude sooner if they know you can be above the holding stacks before you reach them, otherwise you get a long track at 6000 ft until you've passed beneath them. I know certain airfields in Germany have long SIDs in order to ensure you reach a certain altitude before the FIR boundary. The sooner you get the altitude the sooner they can clear you on a much shorter direct routing off the SID.
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My own understanding is that one should let the speed stay "managed' as this would be the most efficient way of getting up there.
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At LukeSkyTodler:
What do you mean, the speed the ATC can "see" is the selected speed.
Would they not read out the GS of the aircraft?
Hence they ask what the indicated speed is, or mach number?
Would a mode s transponder show the selected speed?
Many reasons to use V/S though, one of them to slow down your V/S when approaching your target altitude to avoid TA's or RA's to other traffic around.
Rgds
What do you mean, the speed the ATC can "see" is the selected speed.
Would they not read out the GS of the aircraft?
Hence they ask what the indicated speed is, or mach number?
Would a mode s transponder show the selected speed?
Many reasons to use V/S though, one of them to slow down your V/S when approaching your target altitude to avoid TA's or RA's to other traffic around.
Rgds
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Luke,
I don t think they can see selected speed at all. Only IAS/VS/HDG and selected altitude. Any controllers care to comment?
Certainly on the bus, Open Climb, Open descent, etc are very slow to react via autothrust. Using VS can get you going up or down sooner.
I don t think they can see selected speed at all. Only IAS/VS/HDG and selected altitude. Any controllers care to comment?
Certainly on the bus, Open Climb, Open descent, etc are very slow to react via autothrust. Using VS can get you going up or down sooner.
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Something you need to watch out for, if the pilot quickly selects a lower speed... If you are extremely light...the aircraft will rocket up, you will get an alt * and overshoot the altitude by 3-400 feet. If you are extemely heavy and try to zoom the aircraft you have the possibility of having a tail slide...to get out of it you need to disconnect the auto pilot and push it over.
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To get there faster, you simply select a lower speed (CLB or OPEN CLB). Indeed Airbus clearly states that use of VS mode is not recommended since it can confuse the FMGS (selecting an unattainable IAS for a given VS can confuse the FMGS).
The only arguments I can think of are to use VS to avoid large pitch changes.
VS can be useful on the A320 series when you are heavy, the wind is unstable, and you are above FL300. In these conditions the aircraft VS can rapidly oscillate between (for example) 300fpm to 1500fpm in order to maintain the selected IAS as the wind changes. Small changes in IAS trend = large change in pitch/vertical speed under these conditons. This can be avoided by selecting M0.80 (ie power on), VS+1000, and closely monitoring your IAS as it varies.
There is also an argument to use VS during a very turbulent descent. OPEN DES can again cause large rapid pitch changes, and DES can cause VS-1000 and power to be added if you temporarily go below the profile (you probably want to get under the profile/wx in these conditions). So if you wind the speed back to green dot and select VS-2500 (for example... depends on altitude etc), you should keep the power off and a fairly constant descent rate even as the wind changes. Again, you must monitor IAS closely.
The only arguments I can think of are to use VS to avoid large pitch changes.
VS can be useful on the A320 series when you are heavy, the wind is unstable, and you are above FL300. In these conditions the aircraft VS can rapidly oscillate between (for example) 300fpm to 1500fpm in order to maintain the selected IAS as the wind changes. Small changes in IAS trend = large change in pitch/vertical speed under these conditons. This can be avoided by selecting M0.80 (ie power on), VS+1000, and closely monitoring your IAS as it varies.
There is also an argument to use VS during a very turbulent descent. OPEN DES can again cause large rapid pitch changes, and DES can cause VS-1000 and power to be added if you temporarily go below the profile (you probably want to get under the profile/wx in these conditions). So if you wind the speed back to green dot and select VS-2500 (for example... depends on altitude etc), you should keep the power off and a fairly constant descent rate even as the wind changes. Again, you must monitor IAS closely.
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To claim, ATC can see anything you select on the flight control panel, be it Speed, rateofclimb or selected Altitude, is complete nonsense...
They see the following: Your Groundspeed as calculated by the Radar (it is not transmitted), your present Altitude (transmitted by the transponder), your Squawk (usually computerchanged to your callsign), and on mode S they actually do recieve the call sign.
Nothing selected ever gets transmitted, and pilots trying to fly faster than 250 below 100 by selecting V/S don't have the slightest clue.
If I want to fly faster, I just ask, or see if I am in class C airspace, where no speed limit apllies...
Nic
They see the following: Your Groundspeed as calculated by the Radar (it is not transmitted), your present Altitude (transmitted by the transponder), your Squawk (usually computerchanged to your callsign), and on mode S they actually do recieve the call sign.
Nothing selected ever gets transmitted, and pilots trying to fly faster than 250 below 100 by selecting V/S don't have the slightest clue.
If I want to fly faster, I just ask, or see if I am in class C airspace, where no speed limit apllies...
Nic
Admiral, better watch out.
A controller can tell us more, but I know that depending on software installed, the comtrollers can see SELECTED alt, hdg and speed.
This is certainly true for the London TMA and parts in Germany.
Once, flying out of Luton, we were cleared to to climb to FL120.
FL120 was selected and read back, however the PnF had doubts and subsequently asked the controller to confirm 'you want us to climb to 12- or 130?'
Response from the controller: The level you've got SELECTED is correct, climb FL120.
==
Arrowhead, what exactly do you mean by 'setting an unattainable IAS can confuse the FMGS'. I am far from being an expert on the subject, but I have never heared of this.
So what kind of confusion are we talking about???
A controller can tell us more, but I know that depending on software installed, the comtrollers can see SELECTED alt, hdg and speed.
This is certainly true for the London TMA and parts in Germany.
Once, flying out of Luton, we were cleared to to climb to FL120.
FL120 was selected and read back, however the PnF had doubts and subsequently asked the controller to confirm 'you want us to climb to 12- or 130?'
Response from the controller: The level you've got SELECTED is correct, climb FL120.
==
Arrowhead, what exactly do you mean by 'setting an unattainable IAS can confuse the FMGS'. I am far from being an expert on the subject, but I have never heared of this.
So what kind of confusion are we talking about???
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My own understanding is that one should let the speed stay "managed' as this would be the most efficient way of getting up there
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Be Careful!!!!!
Using V/S is OK...but, you have to watch your airspeed. You can't set Vertical Speed and go back to reading your newspaper or magazine. You could have unacceptable airspeed excursions.
With regard to Managed Speed and the uneven climb rates (sometimes drops to Zero for a moment or two), Airbus says that's OK. It's still the most efficient (based on your selected Cost Index).
Personally, I like to use Managed Speed when all things are wonderful. But, throw in turbulence, or ATC requests/requirements, etc., etc....I may have to resort to V/S.
Another method is to Select Speed/Select Mach to something a bit slower (not too slow), to give you a short-lived boost in the pants. This works...depending on your immediate requirements.
With regard to the 500 FPM minimum...it is not a minimum climb rate...You can climb at only 50 FPM, if that amuses you. It's just that anything less than 500 FPM requires notification to ATC. In the case of momentary drops in climb rates in the Managed Speed profile, ATC need not be notified, unless the drop is more than 'momentary'. This is up to your judgement...what ATC calls to make..., captain.
Hope this helps....
PantLoad
With regard to Managed Speed and the uneven climb rates (sometimes drops to Zero for a moment or two), Airbus says that's OK. It's still the most efficient (based on your selected Cost Index).
Personally, I like to use Managed Speed when all things are wonderful. But, throw in turbulence, or ATC requests/requirements, etc., etc....I may have to resort to V/S.
Another method is to Select Speed/Select Mach to something a bit slower (not too slow), to give you a short-lived boost in the pants. This works...depending on your immediate requirements.
With regard to the 500 FPM minimum...it is not a minimum climb rate...You can climb at only 50 FPM, if that amuses you. It's just that anything less than 500 FPM requires notification to ATC. In the case of momentary drops in climb rates in the Managed Speed profile, ATC need not be notified, unless the drop is more than 'momentary'. This is up to your judgement...what ATC calls to make..., captain.
Hope this helps....
PantLoad
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...it is not a minimum climb rate
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Flying a managed climb, the aircraft will match all speed/ Alt constraint programmed in the MCDU. The plane will juggle speed and ROC to match these constrains. If you pull open clb, the plane gives you the best ROC and ignores all constraints.
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If you pull open clb, the plane gives you the best ROC and ignores all constraints. by taperlok
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To be honest the Q I had asked was " if the weather/ ATC /constraints is not an issue is it better to let the speed stay managed during a climb out or as I have seen some pilots select a lower speed / higher V/S to get to the cleared altitude faster. Would this result in any fuel saving, on say a 2-3 hour flight.