Can you deploy ground spoilers manually?
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Can you deploy ground spoilers manually?
Reading the Congonhas accident thread, I've seen that quite a lot of posters criticize Airbus for not giving the pilot the capability to manually select the ground spoilers and then go on to bash its "complex spoiler logic". Being quite inexperienced (I've only flown ATR and A320) I've assumed that arming the ground spoilers and letting WOW to decide when to deploy them is industrywide standard nowadays. Also not having manual override seemed normal to me.
So whatewer your airplane might be, if it has ground spoilers, please tell me wheteher you have possibility to fire them no-matter-what.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
So whatewer your airplane might be, if it has ground spoilers, please tell me wheteher you have possibility to fire them no-matter-what.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
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Fokker 70/100: "Manual" ground spoiler extension is done by pulling both reverst thrust levers to at least idle reverse. This is done on any landing as a backup if the "normal" extension of armed spoilers triggered by wheel spin-up doesn't work.
Dash 7/8-100/8-400: spoilers are extended with thrust levers in idle and weight on wheels. Rather simple logic but no way to "force" extension if something is amiss (e.g. no WOW).
Dash 7/8-100/8-400: spoilers are extended with thrust levers in idle and weight on wheels. Rather simple logic but no way to "force" extension if something is amiss (e.g. no WOW).
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L1011...no matter what, spoilers are manually selectable, on ground or airbourne.
Same for the B707.
Going further, the L1011 has auto-spoilers after landing (strut compression) and need not be manually armed, arming is automatic.
And, of course, the TriStar has DLC, direct lift control, wherein when landing flaps are selected, the (some) spoilers extend to a null position, and modulate with control column input in pitch.
A superbly accurate system, that keeps the deck angle on final rock solid, at about 7.5 degrees.
In flying the aeroplane for 28 years, never has this system failed to operate as advertised.
With the TriStar, the quality went in before the name went on.
Systems are fail operational in all respects.
Having said this, some might feel that Lockheed went just a bit overboard with systems redundancy, but when you are down and dirty in the mist on landing, the Lockheed three-holer will find the runway every time, with its four channels of fail operational autopilot system.
It must be seen and flown to be believed....it is that good.
Same for the B707.
Going further, the L1011 has auto-spoilers after landing (strut compression) and need not be manually armed, arming is automatic.
And, of course, the TriStar has DLC, direct lift control, wherein when landing flaps are selected, the (some) spoilers extend to a null position, and modulate with control column input in pitch.
A superbly accurate system, that keeps the deck angle on final rock solid, at about 7.5 degrees.
In flying the aeroplane for 28 years, never has this system failed to operate as advertised.
With the TriStar, the quality went in before the name went on.
Systems are fail operational in all respects.
Having said this, some might feel that Lockheed went just a bit overboard with systems redundancy, but when you are down and dirty in the mist on landing, the Lockheed three-holer will find the runway every time, with its four channels of fail operational autopilot system.
It must be seen and flown to be believed....it is that good.
Last edited by 411A; 2nd Aug 2007 at 22:29.
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411A Do you get paid by LM every time you mention the 3* ?
It was fantastic but its old and heavy and burns too much fuel and you can't get spares and probably makes too much noise these days.
I loved it too but for what it was not what it is now.
You need to sit infront of a brand new EFIS like the E-Jets to see how much things have progressed.
It was fantastic but its old and heavy and burns too much fuel and you can't get spares and probably makes too much noise these days.
I loved it too but for what it was not what it is now.
You need to sit infront of a brand new EFIS like the E-Jets to see how much things have progressed.
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411A Do you get paid by LM every time you mention the 3* ?
Oddly enough, I was talking to a Boeing avionics engineer just four days ago who recently retired, and he is quite familiar with the TriStar, and his exact words were...'TriStar was very complicated, but worked really well, and what surprised me was the fact that it was so reliable.'
His words, not mine.
Now, having landed the beast thousands of times, never once did the autospoilers fail to extend properly.
Rather important, it seems to me.
Surprisingly enough, TriStars are being reactivated now, as there is a shortage of wide body lift, that will persist for a year or two....just long enough for yours truly to retire in style.
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'TriStar was very complicated, but worked really well, and what surprised me was the fact that it was so reliable.'
- the Eastern Everglades "light bulb" accident
- the Saudi Arabian inflight fire, successful return but no evacuation @Riyadh
- the Delta thunderstorm / windshear accident @DFW
PS: sry for thread drift, delete as appropriate
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On Canadair RJs you can manually arm or disarm the GLD function if the automatic arming function isn't working, but you can't force a manual deployment of the GS themselves. (arming is a prerequisite for deployment, but arming alone wont force deployment)
You do, I believe, still have direct control of the flight spoilers on-ground if the GLD function doesn't work, but the GS themselves won't deploy. So you'll effectively get partial GLD in that case.
You do, I believe, still have direct control of the flight spoilers on-ground if the GLD function doesn't work, but the GS themselves won't deploy. So you'll effectively get partial GLD in that case.
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Reading the Congonhas accident thread, I've seen that quite a lot of posters criticize Airbus for not giving the pilot the capability to manually select the ground spoilers and then go on to bash its "complex spoiler logic".
It would require manually disarming the ground spoilers (pushing the lever down) then pulling the lever back.
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on the MD80 both manually an auto, same lever, the auto receive signal from WOW an in case WOW fail, from nose gear strut compression, as some said, more than 95% reliable.. and I guess Airbus is the same.. we have to see the final complete report to know what really happened
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On the A320 there is nothing to stop the crew operating the speedbrake manually if auto deploy doesn't work.
It would require manually disarming the ground spoilers (pushing the lever down) then pulling the lever back.
It would require manually disarming the ground spoilers (pushing the lever down) then pulling the lever back.
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Is speedbrake available in that landing/full config?
It worked in the sim, but a sim is only as good as it's programming.
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on the 777 you can arm them before landing, which is the standard operating procedure, you can deploy them manually or pull the reverse thrust levers after landing, which also deploys them. no problems for me for the last 10 years so i would consider this as reliable too! 
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In my career, I have never met such a uncertainty within pilots, and my own I must admit, concerning system behaviors like on 320/340.
It's very complex and depends on modifications done/not done, pin-programming done/not done, 320 yes 321 no and vice versa.
Gulp, happy to be back on A300.
It's very complex and depends on modifications done/not done, pin-programming done/not done, 320 yes 321 no and vice versa.
Gulp, happy to be back on A300.
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CRJ - Autodeployment after arming of all spoilers (Ground & Flight/Multifunction [Outers]) is by any two out of WonW/Wheel Spin-Up/Rad Alt< 5ft. If not armed in landing configuration, an EICAS Caution "GLS NOT ARMED" will be set. Manual by overide switch if required.
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Mr Hawk, a correction:
"that made me look at ASN statistics for the 3* to find that there are (only) 3 accidents with fatalities and all of them are (in)famous in aviation accident history, while none of them has the aircraft as main contributing factor:
* the Eastern Everglades "light bulb" accident
* the Saudi Arabian inflight fire, successful return but no evacuation @Riyadh
* the Delta thunderstorm / windshear accident @DFW"
There was one (or 2, if Sri Lanka bombing counts) other incident, as Mr. 411A will confirm. A Saudia Tri-Star, over the Persian/Arabian (your choice) Gulf, had a left landing gear tire explode; two Pakistani children went out the resulting hole. The aircraft landed, with hydraulic/brake issues, at the very long runway at Doha. The very strange story is, that either one, or two, of these kids were supposedly found alive floating in the sea. A few days later I (then on the 737-200) visited Doha, and saw the huge hole torn in the floor on the left side of that aircraft. It was surprising that only two people were sucked out; the hole was big! Can anyone confirm the story of the survival of those 2 kids? Just for the record...not 3, but 4 fatal incidents (in addition to the bombing in Sri Lanka, which would make 5). Sam
"that made me look at ASN statistics for the 3* to find that there are (only) 3 accidents with fatalities and all of them are (in)famous in aviation accident history, while none of them has the aircraft as main contributing factor:
* the Eastern Everglades "light bulb" accident
* the Saudi Arabian inflight fire, successful return but no evacuation @Riyadh
* the Delta thunderstorm / windshear accident @DFW"
There was one (or 2, if Sri Lanka bombing counts) other incident, as Mr. 411A will confirm. A Saudia Tri-Star, over the Persian/Arabian (your choice) Gulf, had a left landing gear tire explode; two Pakistani children went out the resulting hole. The aircraft landed, with hydraulic/brake issues, at the very long runway at Doha. The very strange story is, that either one, or two, of these kids were supposedly found alive floating in the sea. A few days later I (then on the 737-200) visited Doha, and saw the huge hole torn in the floor on the left side of that aircraft. It was surprising that only two people were sucked out; the hole was big! Can anyone confirm the story of the survival of those 2 kids? Just for the record...not 3, but 4 fatal incidents (in addition to the bombing in Sri Lanka, which would make 5). Sam
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From the Congonhas thread
On the apparently confusing subject of whether the ground spoilers would have deployed had the speedbrake lever been extend, I believe the explanation is as follows: Per the FCOMs for the aircraft I have flown Ground Spoilers are only ever automatically actuated through the arming conditions and thrust lever positions as documented in earlier posts. Speedbrakes (or Flight Spoilers if you prefer) are another matter. These, which are physically the same control surfaces (3 of 5 anyway), can be actuated manually through the extension of the Speedbrake lever. On the A320's I flew this function was inhibited in CONF FULL (but that was 10 years ago). However, more recently flying A330s and A340s for several operators I have discovered that different aircraft of the same model have different inhibitions in this regard. It depends on the particular modification status of the aircraft which in this case is dictated by the flight control computer standard (for the A320, the SEC) installed. Quite likely all A320's are not the same in this respect either and hence the differing opinions from pilots flying models with different SEC standards installed.
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"Can anyone confirm the story of the survival of those 2 kids? Just for the record...not 3, but 4 fatal incidents (in addition to the bombing in Sri Lanka, which would make 5."
The two children were the only two fatalities, a rim bead on a MLG wheel failed and the shrapnel opened a 3' by 5' hole on the MLG pressure deck. The MLG door blew open, but the gear remained retracted. Without getting to graphic the children had pass through the retracted landing gear. The accident occured at 29,000 feet so the chances of the story of a child being found alive are sadly untrue.
The bomb in the UL aircraft while counting as a hall loss, can hardly be classed a an accident. Just like the LTU fire in Dusseldorf and the TWA fire in Boston, hull losses but not reportable acidents.
The two children were the only two fatalities, a rim bead on a MLG wheel failed and the shrapnel opened a 3' by 5' hole on the MLG pressure deck. The MLG door blew open, but the gear remained retracted. Without getting to graphic the children had pass through the retracted landing gear. The accident occured at 29,000 feet so the chances of the story of a child being found alive are sadly untrue.
The bomb in the UL aircraft while counting as a hall loss, can hardly be classed a an accident. Just like the LTU fire in Dusseldorf and the TWA fire in Boston, hull losses but not reportable acidents.