New technologies, reason for accidents...?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
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The L-188 got off to a rocky start - this LGA accident was the first, and could readily be blamed on inadequate training on new technology.
But within a few years it was a reliable workhorse, unfortunately passed over in favor of jets.
But within a few years it was a reliable workhorse, unfortunately passed over in favor of jets.
Sims Fly Virtually
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Used to be 3rd Sand Dune from the Left - But now I'm somewhere else somewhere else.
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Added in case the Press come thisaway . . . . . 
Carnarsie with "2 out" was only in the "Sim",to while away a quiet night shift
- I'm sure anyone with even one donk adrift in the real thing would be definitely voting for the Alternate!
The TAM thread on R&N certainly seems to be panning out that the strong probability is an over-reliance on the "autos" and, possibly, lack of full understanding (or confusion in a scary "panic situation") - Back to my first post on this thread:
- 1) Chop the power, 2) hit the spoilers, 3) reverse buckets out, 4) toes on anchors - I'm sure it was easy for me to remember.
And after step 2, if it ain't stopping and the tarmac is short and wet: 1) firewall the throttles, 2) spoilers in, 3) flaps to 15 (or whatever according to type). Why does it need a computer?
(Disclaimer: Just a Sim Eng, and don't know nuffin!)
Carnarsie with "2 out" was only in the "Sim",to while away a quiet night shift
- I'm sure anyone with even one donk adrift in the real thing would be definitely voting for the Alternate!The TAM thread on R&N certainly seems to be panning out that the strong probability is an over-reliance on the "autos" and, possibly, lack of full understanding (or confusion in a scary "panic situation") - Back to my first post on this thread:
- 1) Chop the power, 2) hit the spoilers, 3) reverse buckets out, 4) toes on anchors - I'm sure it was easy for me to remember.
And after step 2, if it ain't stopping and the tarmac is short and wet: 1) firewall the throttles, 2) spoilers in, 3) flaps to 15 (or whatever according to type). Why does it need a computer?
(Disclaimer: Just a Sim Eng, and don't know nuffin!
)Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
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ESG - absolutely. That is the 'old' way. This thread has significant cross-over with my thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=285754 where I asked if too much reliance was being placed in training on the 'auto' side of the game. We do not, I think, know much about the background of the TAM crew as to in which flying regime they gained their experience and whether most of their 'time' was FMC/computer related.
You may wish to chip in over there, but we must establish how much can we train pilots ONLY on the 'automatics' (assuming of course they are totally reliable) and how much emphasis do we place on the 'old' skills.
This is a dilemma which will be with us for ever and grow in complexity as more and more 'if/then' and 'and/or' loops are added to the software until it is impossible for the human brain to adapt and follow the processes.
If I understand the TAM thread correctly (and I may well have got that wrong - it is a long one!), the option of deploying full spoilers manually was not there? If so, that takes away a large chunk of your raison d'etre. How do we train for that?
You may wish to chip in over there, but we must establish how much can we train pilots ONLY on the 'automatics' (assuming of course they are totally reliable) and how much emphasis do we place on the 'old' skills.
This is a dilemma which will be with us for ever and grow in complexity as more and more 'if/then' and 'and/or' loops are added to the software until it is impossible for the human brain to adapt and follow the processes.
If I understand the TAM thread correctly (and I may well have got that wrong - it is a long one!), the option of deploying full spoilers manually was not there? If so, that takes away a large chunk of your raison d'etre. How do we train for that?
Sims Fly Virtually
Join Date: Jun 2001
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BOAC - I've been following the "TAM thread" since the start (all 1400+ posts on it!) but haven't chipped in there as I was banned some time ago, with a note "When you get back, stay out of R&N" I assumed that this was because I'm not a "current Professional Pilot", although I have seen many posts on"TAM" from self-admitted PAX! Soured me a bit on PPRuNe, having been registered since before the Big Crash, and I'm in the very distinct minority there (R&N) as one who has made some financial contribution!
Anyway - digression - (Quote)the option of deploying full spoilers manually was not there?(/Quote) - Yes, as I understand it, if you don't have both Thrust Levers at or near idle, or in reverse, the aircraft locks you out of spoilers. Assuming the pilot(s)made a mistake there, it is (to my mind) an example of the aircraft taking over control.
Even if (again, an assumption at this stage) one of the TAM engines was trying to open to climb power, I would have thought that the availability of "manual spoiler deployment" would have given the guys braking (both spoiler and wheels) and a hell of a lot more time to work out what was wrong and to do something about it. (certainly more than 19 seconds!)
Thanks for the link -I'll be over there later today, after I check out the latest on "TAM" (if you don't check daily, there's too much to "read-in"!)
Stu
Anyway - digression - (Quote)the option of deploying full spoilers manually was not there?(/Quote) - Yes, as I understand it, if you don't have both Thrust Levers at or near idle, or in reverse, the aircraft locks you out of spoilers. Assuming the pilot(s)made a mistake there, it is (to my mind) an example of the aircraft taking over control.
Even if (again, an assumption at this stage) one of the TAM engines was trying to open to climb power, I would have thought that the availability of "manual spoiler deployment" would have given the guys braking (both spoiler and wheels) and a hell of a lot more time to work out what was wrong and to do something about it. (certainly more than 19 seconds!)
Thanks for the link -I'll be over there later today, after I check out the latest on "TAM" (if you don't check daily, there's too much to "read-in"!)
Stu
