Flightplans
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Either somewhere in the 3rd world, the land of cheese and wine, or possibly very occasionally, at home.
Age: 59
Posts: 488
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flightplans
I have a simple question, and I suspect the answer is in the question
When it says POB, presumably that includes the pilot and pax.
The reason I ask, is that I've heard people call, for example, 8 POB, when in fact there have been 8 PAX plus a pilot on board, and I've also heard 8 POB including pilot.
I've always assumed that POB is exactly what it says on the tin-PERSONS ON BOARD, but I've never been 100% sure....
Answers on a postcard please
When it says POB, presumably that includes the pilot and pax.
The reason I ask, is that I've heard people call, for example, 8 POB, when in fact there have been 8 PAX plus a pilot on board, and I've also heard 8 POB including pilot.
I've always assumed that POB is exactly what it says on the tin-PERSONS ON BOARD, but I've never been 100% sure....
Answers on a postcard please
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
POB
On a flight plan, POB means what is says "people on board"...
Meaning "crew + passengers"...
xxx
With my airline, we file TBN "to be notified" in that space, as we do not know the actual count, last minute changes of people boarding the plane. Then before we start engines, the senior flight attendant comes to inform the cockpit crew as to how many passengers have been counted. Then we inform the ground as to how many people are actually on board when requesting start clearance.
xxx
Happy contrails
Meaning "crew + passengers"...
xxx
With my airline, we file TBN "to be notified" in that space, as we do not know the actual count, last minute changes of people boarding the plane. Then before we start engines, the senior flight attendant comes to inform the cockpit crew as to how many passengers have been counted. Then we inform the ground as to how many people are actually on board when requesting start clearance.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Classic confusion:
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, first solo, one POB" duh.
But if you forget to mention it and it's been a long day for the controllers:
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, first solo, request taxi"
"YYY, XXX, say POB"
"One, obviously"
Or the other classic:
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, cross country solo, zero POB" (Passengers on Board?)
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, first solo, one POB" duh.
But if you forget to mention it and it's been a long day for the controllers:
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, first solo, request taxi"
"YYY, XXX, say POB"
"One, obviously"
Or the other classic:
"XXX Tower, YYY, a ZZZ, student pilot, cross country solo, zero POB" (Passengers on Board?)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamburg
Age: 46
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
INSERT the total number of persons (passengers and crew) on board, when required by the appropriate ATS authority. INSERT TBN (to be notified) if the total number of persons is not known at the time of filing (PANS-ATM, Appendix 2).
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The basic intent of POB advice is so that rescue services know how many persons to recover after an accident. Thus, POB count is, as hvogt has pointed out, includes all LIVING persons on board, passengers and crew.
When I was with the Flying Doctor, I once advised upon taxy 6 POB, being myself, 3 medical staff, one dying patient, and one in advanced labour.
En-route, sadly, one patient died, and I duly advised Flight Service of amended POB 5. A little later, the pregnant patient delivered her baby, and I duly advised Flight Service of amended POB 6.
The predictable reply from Flight Service was "Make up your mind!"
Regards,
Old Smokey
When I was with the Flying Doctor, I once advised upon taxy 6 POB, being myself, 3 medical staff, one dying patient, and one in advanced labour.
En-route, sadly, one patient died, and I duly advised Flight Service of amended POB 5. A little later, the pregnant patient delivered her baby, and I duly advised Flight Service of amended POB 6.
The predictable reply from Flight Service was "Make up your mind!"
Regards,
Old Smokey
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOB = Souls on board (this includes crew)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Down South
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have a dead person on board use souls on board. ie POB 10 and SOB 7. That way if you crash and 7 live people are found the numbers stack up. At least thats the way I have always understood the differences.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: one dot low as usual
Age: 66
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's definitely total persons on board including crew. The guide to completing a flight plan form (CAA link here).
Item 19 - Persons on Board
Insert the total number of persons (passengers and crew) on board, when required by the appropriate ATS authority.
Insert "TBN" (to be notified) if the total number is not known at the time of filing.
Even if you haven't filed a flight plan, the verbal request from the tower would have the same meaning, so it's total on board. As it's for SAR purposes, if your pax died enroute then I wouldn't amend the number, when they fish bodies out of the sea, they won't know which ones were dead or alive beforehand, they'll just be working to a headcount
Item 19 - Persons on Board
Insert the total number of persons (passengers and crew) on board, when required by the appropriate ATS authority.
Insert "TBN" (to be notified) if the total number is not known at the time of filing.
Even if you haven't filed a flight plan, the verbal request from the tower would have the same meaning, so it's total on board. As it's for SAR purposes, if your pax died enroute then I wouldn't amend the number, when they fish bodies out of the sea, they won't know which ones were dead or alive beforehand, they'll just be working to a headcount
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamburg
Age: 46
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never heard the term 'souls on board' before. Since I doubt that it is a term ICAO uses, I assume it's used in the UK only. Could somebody quote a reference (CAP most likely)?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Either somewhere in the 3rd world, the land of cheese and wine, or possibly very occasionally, at home.
Age: 59
Posts: 488
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks everyone - it would appear I wasn't the only one who was a bit confused
Guest
Posts: n/a
they'll just be working to a headcount
Sorry if anyone thinks it's a bit tasteless but it's not meant to be facetious, just a statement of fact.
As for POB vs SOB, I don't think it's particularly a UK thing but it certainly originated many years ago - perhaps in the airline world to distinguish between those who paid for their seat and who didn't. As far as ATC and SAR are concerned, though, the only thing we're usually interested in is total persons on board (POB) for the reason above.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The World, although sometimes I wonder
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
POB is exactly that = people on board.
It is more for SAR than anything else that the figure is included. Heavens above in the unlikely event of an accident, the emergency services are looking for a total amount, not x crew and y passengers.
That can be sorted out later.
As to souls on board, I think that is some casual non-ICAO term that was used by someone and everyone else thought it was good and fancy to use, so they all use it now.
It is more for SAR than anything else that the figure is included. Heavens above in the unlikely event of an accident, the emergency services are looking for a total amount, not x crew and y passengers.
That can be sorted out later.
As to souls on board, I think that is some casual non-ICAO term that was used by someone and everyone else thought it was good and fancy to use, so they all use it now.
