IAPs with IAF not a facility
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Somewhere in the Tropics UTC+7 to 9
While it shouldn't be necessary for a pilot to be a procedures designer, an awareness of the segments of an approach sometimes helps answer questions about IFR navigation --e.g., when is it OK to fly straight-in, when is it necessary to fly a course reversal pattern, etc.
There have been cases where pilots cut the corner and gets too close to the trees... on the side of the hill!
With the advent of glass cockpits, newer pilots without a clue how to navigate without the ND/FMC IS becoming a problem that some carriers here insist that pilots under probation fly approaches using raw data only... Several Captains still insist that if the F/O cannot make the approach using raw data, then he shouldn't be flying... I'm not saying it's wrong or right, but it does reduce approach accident rates in the long term...
BOAC, that's a REAL concern! *sigh* There have been new pilots who fly so much by the book, that when something outside the book happens, they stop functioning!
PK-KAR
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
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From: UK
Call me old-fashioned, but above MSA with a VOR radial display and DME? Why on earth do I need a 'prescribed track'?
But that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to design procedures that require mental gymnastics. Your "but above MSA" rider suggests that you wouldn't bet your life on accurate dead reckoning with terrain and obstacles poking up through your level -- and quite right too!
There was a feeling around the time of the AA Cali accident that the crew were a little too comfortable with the idea of flying from point to point on direct tracks, because in the environment they were used to operating in, such directs were usually above the MSA. In the case of the track to their final waypoint, it wasn't!
So I agree strongly with Zeffy. Although pilots shouldn't need to be PANS-OPS experts to fly, a little awareness of the way the approach should be constructed is a good thing.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
I completely agree with the general points, but was dealing primarily with the example quoted and in particular with the expressed difficulty
The problems raised in post #1 are very familiar at 'regional' (and some international airports) in Canada and do require some serious thought to operate non-RNAV.
The DIN example is so simple - and there is NO terrain, and indeed it is operable 'non'-ATC' also, and locating those points should be 'child's play'..
How does one find ADIDI or DIRGO?
The DIN example is so simple - and there is NO terrain, and indeed it is operable 'non'-ATC' also, and locating those points should be 'child's play'..
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
I think we're all in agreement.
I interpreted NorthSouth's "How does one find ADIDI or DIRGO?" as a rather more technical question about the procedure design than a practical question about how to make best effort to navigate to such a waypoint. Having read NorthSouth's contributions for many years, I doubt there would be much practical difficulty!
I interpreted NorthSouth's "How does one find ADIDI or DIRGO?" as a rather more technical question about the procedure design than a practical question about how to make best effort to navigate to such a waypoint. Having read NorthSouth's contributions for many years, I doubt there would be much practical difficulty!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 450
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From: Somewhere in the Tropics UTC+7 to 9
While it shouldn't be necessary for a pilot to be a procedures designer, an awareness of the segments of an approach sometimes helps answer questions about IFR navigation --e.g., when is it OK to fly straight-in, when is it necessary to fly a course reversal pattern, etc.
The problems raised in post #1 are very familiar at 'regional' (and some international airports) in Canada and do require some serious thought to operate non-RNAV.
http://www.globalsim.web.id/publicse...F_examples.pdf
OK... here are some (old) examples with MSAs higher than the IAF/IF altitudes... btw, the MORAs in this case are much higher...
WAPP 04
How does one find AUDRI? It's not on an airway... Hit AUDRI at 4100 and MSA is 5200... The STARs end at PMA or an NDB next to PMA at 6000.
In this case I really wouldn't try and hit IF immediately at 1650... Even coming from the SE...
WAJJ 30
On this one, how does one go to the IF @JIPOS from the north? And the IF isn't on any airway.
The above two examples will cause problems if goes to the FMC and punches go direct IF on the FMC directly while in IMC and goes below the MSA "blindly"... However, area familiarity will give pilots the ability to go "direct" without unacceptable risks if done correctly (ie: read the risks on the plate!)
WIIJ 09
Coming form the west is easy enough, D8JOG and the IF is along W17... but coming in from the N or NW? In this case you have little choice due to the restricted airspace... follow the corridor to JOG, Go on 276 until D8 and then do a reversal or the appropriate holding entry and presto...
There are a few approaches that DO make me wonder how on earth did they design the procedure in the first place... (New Padang ILS33... don't have the chart handy)...
PK-KAR
