Landing in sandstrorms?
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Landing in sandstrorms?
Has anyone landed in a sand storm?
I often see FU in middle east airfield TAF's but have never experienced landing in such conditions?
I understand the viz can go down dramatically - below CAT1?
Are engines able to cope in such conditions?
Is it not even a 'look see' just dont make an approach scenario?
I often see FU in middle east airfield TAF's but have never experienced landing in such conditions?
I understand the viz can go down dramatically - below CAT1?
Are engines able to cope in such conditions?
Is it not even a 'look see' just dont make an approach scenario?
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I'm just a PPL, probably not the jet drivers you are asking responses from. But I've been in a sandstorm in the Iceland interior (in a car) and the visibility is literally only a few meters. I was driving very slowly (less than walking pace) when a figure loomed up from the dust about five meters in front of my car. Turned out to be a cyclist, pushing his bike forward through the sand that had accumulated on the road, virtually blind (he had his hat in front of his face). I stopped, he literally bumped into my car with his bike, then looked up and went around me. Surreal. (And he had a good 60 km to go to the nearest settlement...)
Later on, we came upon some gates we had to drive through. Since I wear contact lenses, my girlfriend elected to go out of the car to open the gates (while I held my eyes shut), I drove through, she closed the gate again and got in again (while I had my eyes shut again). Lots of sand blew into the car during these two brief moments where the door was open.
So in a full-blown sandstorm (and it doesn't take that much wind to blow up fine sand), not only would visibility below anything other than a cat-III landing, but from an average cockpit you would not be able to see taxi lanes, and ground ops will be virtually impossible.
That's without even considering the damage it could do to a jet engine or a propellor.
Later on, we came upon some gates we had to drive through. Since I wear contact lenses, my girlfriend elected to go out of the car to open the gates (while I held my eyes shut), I drove through, she closed the gate again and got in again (while I had my eyes shut again). Lots of sand blew into the car during these two brief moments where the door was open.
So in a full-blown sandstorm (and it doesn't take that much wind to blow up fine sand), not only would visibility below anything other than a cat-III landing, but from an average cockpit you would not be able to see taxi lanes, and ground ops will be virtually impossible.
That's without even considering the damage it could do to a jet engine or a propellor.
Sand is far more predicatable than volcanic ash since it's constituents are less varried. With that said here are the engine concerns:
1) Sand accumulation in the oil system or cooling air holes in the hot section
2) erosion of the spinning blades
3) melting of the finer particles (if there are any) in the burner and redeposition on the turbine nozzle vanes.
4) Inability for the engine to respond to throttle increases
Items 1) and 2) are long term concerns and would likely only manifest themselves over several flights.
Item 3) & 4) are the chief worry for both sand and especially volcanic ash.
sand is much less of a concern than volcanic ash since its particulate size (grains) often are much bigger than some of the volcanic dust that reaches high altitudes and therfore it doesn't have enough time to melt in the burner. Couple this with the expected low turbine inlet temperatures of an approach, compared to takeoff or cruise and it's unlikely that sand will turn on the concerns in items 3) & 4)
I would be a lot more concerned about gross sand ingestion in a takeoff situation.
1) Sand accumulation in the oil system or cooling air holes in the hot section
2) erosion of the spinning blades
3) melting of the finer particles (if there are any) in the burner and redeposition on the turbine nozzle vanes.
4) Inability for the engine to respond to throttle increases
Items 1) and 2) are long term concerns and would likely only manifest themselves over several flights.
Item 3) & 4) are the chief worry for both sand and especially volcanic ash.
sand is much less of a concern than volcanic ash since its particulate size (grains) often are much bigger than some of the volcanic dust that reaches high altitudes and therfore it doesn't have enough time to melt in the burner. Couple this with the expected low turbine inlet temperatures of an approach, compared to takeoff or cruise and it's unlikely that sand will turn on the concerns in items 3) & 4)
I would be a lot more concerned about gross sand ingestion in a takeoff situation.
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hi,
i was landing a 330 in dxb a couple of months ago and the taf reported blowing dust. the only thing we did was to make it a flap 3 landing. however we saw the approach lights only at around 500ft and it was quite windy and gusty. the turbulence on the approach was below 1000ft.
as per the bus's books theres nothing abt sand storms and procedures.
i guess you can select continuos ignition if the turbulence is severe ( which is mentioned in the manuals)
cheers
i was landing a 330 in dxb a couple of months ago and the taf reported blowing dust. the only thing we did was to make it a flap 3 landing. however we saw the approach lights only at around 500ft and it was quite windy and gusty. the turbulence on the approach was below 1000ft.
as per the bus's books theres nothing abt sand storms and procedures.
i guess you can select continuos ignition if the turbulence is severe ( which is mentioned in the manuals)
cheers
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Sand?
Hmmm well, in flying in the mid-east for over thirty years, I've seen plenty of it.
How to cope.
Well, first of all, just land the aeroplane.
Nothing special, except the vis can be reduced...so use automatic approach/land (autoland for you European folks), if you have it.
Works just dandy in the 'ole Lockheed tri-motor.
Engines?
On some occations, I have seen 'em washed out by the fire brigade, there was so much sand.
Strange, but absolutely true.
Other aircraft systems need attention, too.
Especially the filters in the water separators in the air-conditioning system, among others.
Just another day at the office.
Hmmm well, in flying in the mid-east for over thirty years, I've seen plenty of it.
How to cope.
Well, first of all, just land the aeroplane.
Nothing special, except the vis can be reduced...so use automatic approach/land (autoland for you European folks), if you have it.
Works just dandy in the 'ole Lockheed tri-motor.
Engines?
On some occations, I have seen 'em washed out by the fire brigade, there was so much sand.
Strange, but absolutely true.
Other aircraft systems need attention, too.
Especially the filters in the water separators in the air-conditioning system, among others.
Just another day at the office.
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Thanks for the replys.
I'm just a wee bit concerned about damaging the engines, something my company would be a little annoyed over having to order 4 new GE's!!
I supoose the other concern in very low viz dust storms is the shear quantity of it that must be in suspension in the air, and again whether it would be prudent to divert rather than do an autoland?
I guess its one of those things once you have seen it once, the 'whats the big' deal issue go aways ... its the unkown ... our ops manuals give litle guidance ...
I'm just a wee bit concerned about damaging the engines, something my company would be a little annoyed over having to order 4 new GE's!!
I supoose the other concern in very low viz dust storms is the shear quantity of it that must be in suspension in the air, and again whether it would be prudent to divert rather than do an autoland?
I guess its one of those things once you have seen it once, the 'whats the big' deal issue go aways ... its the unkown ... our ops manuals give litle guidance ...
Psychophysiological entity
Another anecdote...or two.
In the 60s I was at El Adam with a Viscount. There was a fine line over the southern horizon; getting bigger as I watched.
As the military SLF neared the terminal the line had become a vast cliff of sand and was heading our way fast. I said that I doubted that we could beat it, but the SLF being trained to do these things, got themselves in and strapped up in about 60 seconds. It was totally amazing to see.
We had no covers for the engines, so very keen to get going. Starting last engine on the go and high speed to the runway for a rolling take off.
We had to bank sharply to miss the vertical wall. We were at 3,000 feet before we could see over the top!
Another time at Benghazi, we had a blocked left pitot head. We asked for help. I noticed some guy outside with some O2/Nitrogen bottles and thought little of it--for a few seconds...then ????????? a light bulb over my rather dull brain came on.
I threw open the DV window and screamed NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! but it was too late, as I was already being showered with glass, springs and funny little cogs.
As I closed the window to have a quiet moment to myself, the sylphon dropped to the floor, as though making a last statement as to how b
ed I was.
In the 60s I was at El Adam with a Viscount. There was a fine line over the southern horizon; getting bigger as I watched.
As the military SLF neared the terminal the line had become a vast cliff of sand and was heading our way fast. I said that I doubted that we could beat it, but the SLF being trained to do these things, got themselves in and strapped up in about 60 seconds. It was totally amazing to see.
We had no covers for the engines, so very keen to get going. Starting last engine on the go and high speed to the runway for a rolling take off.
We had to bank sharply to miss the vertical wall. We were at 3,000 feet before we could see over the top!
Another time at Benghazi, we had a blocked left pitot head. We asked for help. I noticed some guy outside with some O2/Nitrogen bottles and thought little of it--for a few seconds...then ????????? a light bulb over my rather dull brain came on.
I threw open the DV window and screamed NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! but it was too late, as I was already being showered with glass, springs and funny little cogs.
As I closed the window to have a quiet moment to myself, the sylphon dropped to the floor, as though making a last statement as to how b
ed I was.
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These sandstorms, called by various names, depending on the specific location, can reach from the surface to 16000 feet...or more.
Interesting to behold...not nice to be...in
Interesting to behold...not nice to be...in
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411A, The reason your Lockheed tri-motored aircraft lands so good in sandstorms is because they were built in the desert and sandstorms in Palmdale were very common. I know because I lived there for almost 40 years.
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Gosh, glhcarl...I would agree 100%.
TriStar...nothing finer, when the chips are down, and you can't see for sour apples.
After 27 years in the 'ole Lockheed tri-motor, I am still impressed.
One very fine aeroplane.
TriStar...nothing finer, when the chips are down, and you can't see for sour apples.
After 27 years in the 'ole Lockheed tri-motor, I am still impressed.
One very fine aeroplane.
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Spot the runway........this was on a good day.
During the sandstorm season.....
1. Joining the inbound runway track from about 5 nm at 1500'
2. 3:1 the profile, GPS the inbound track, configuring at tipover point
3. Security on the ground facing towards you with the Landcruisers lights on high beam
4. The trusty Serengeti's (brown lens) on
definitely helped the cause
Hey Carl, I can neither confirm nor deny that the photo was taken in PalmdaleJoin Date: Feb 2000
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Hey TOD! I recognise that sandpit! 
As for landing in sandstorms, my experience was treat it as any other storm, ie igniters on continuous and so on. They don't really damage the turbines, but do leave all the blades pretty clean and shiny! Make sure you get a compressor wash before you go flying again, and put as many blanks on the engines, pitots &c.
As for landing in sandstorms, my experience was treat it as any other storm, ie igniters on continuous and so on. They don't really damage the turbines, but do leave all the blades pretty clean and shiny! Make sure you get a compressor wash before you go flying again, and put as many blanks on the engines, pitots &c.
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Hey Firestorm,
How’s it going?
Compressor washes in the Sahara weren't the go according to the ginger beers in Hassi though.........too much calcium content in the underground arterial water.
Do you remember the propeller feathering we had in the cruise?
Cheers
TOD
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Has anyone landed in a sand storm?
I often see FU in middle east airfield TAF's but have never experienced landing in such conditions?
I often see FU in middle east airfield TAF's but have never experienced landing in such conditions?
if you see FU on a TAF then you wont have to consider landing in a sand storm..you'll be landing in smoke!
If you want to give your fan blades a polish, go look for somewhere with SS on the TAF
