Contingency Fuel
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In a similar vain, how much fuel do you feel comfortable arriving at destination.
Our mins are as low as 30 minutes but what if TS are forecast at dest/alternate or windshear or fog.
In HKG, nothing is specified so how much is comfort factor?
ideas
Our mins are as low as 30 minutes but what if TS are forecast at dest/alternate or windshear or fog.
In HKG, nothing is specified so how much is comfort factor?
ideas
Join Date: Dec 2000
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It very much depends on the sector. Early morning arrival before the LHR rush in good weather, Flight Plan Fuel is fine. Same applies to most multi runway environments.
So if that applies, then happy commiting down to 30 mins fuel planned on landing plus say 15 minutes, so say 7.5 tonnes on a 747 - thus allowing for a G/A and second approach.
In general, a multi runway operation (or v close alternate) allows an greater degree of flexibility.
A single runway airport would give greater reason to add fuel, as of course would be a remote airport (Perth, Bermuda, etc) and adverse weather.
Any large scale CB activity/snow down the eastern seaboard, for example, would see me desiring at least an hours extra fuel off the Atlantic.
So if that applies, then happy commiting down to 30 mins fuel planned on landing plus say 15 minutes, so say 7.5 tonnes on a 747 - thus allowing for a G/A and second approach.
In general, a multi runway operation (or v close alternate) allows an greater degree of flexibility.
A single runway airport would give greater reason to add fuel, as of course would be a remote airport (Perth, Bermuda, etc) and adverse weather.
Any large scale CB activity/snow down the eastern seaboard, for example, would see me desiring at least an hours extra fuel off the Atlantic.
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So if that applies, then happy commiting down to 30 mins fuel planned on landing plus say 15 minutes, so say 7.5 tonnes on a 747 - thus allowing for a G/A and second approach.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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company man?
A bit harsh ayc73? The way you say "Company Man" makes it seem like a bad thing to be! TB goes on to partly qualify his answer. And in any case confusion has crept in. Contingency fuel is not the same thing as landing fuel. TB seems to be talking about landing fuel plus judicious extra and not contingency which he can burn up en route. Maybe if we saw his fuel ladder it would make more sense. At the mo' he is suggesting a fuel burn based on 10 tonnes per hour. Anyway I plied my trade for thirty years and was always proud to say which company I worked for. Even after 17000hrs. Anyway the question is contingency fuel, how much and not how happy.
Last edited by enicalyth; 19th Apr 2007 at 09:56.
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A bit harsh ayc73? The way you say "Company Man" makes it seem like a bad thing to be!
My opinion is that 15 mins is a company man number, as regardless of the time of day I wouldn't entertain entering the London TMA with anything less than 45 mins up my sleeve.
I've also never despatched with PLOG fuel, regardless of how good my flight Op's manager considers the present fuel burn optimization software, it's just not prudent IMHO.
I am of course but a lowly F/O, and thus my opinions tend to be viewed in the context of a coming from a lesser mortal
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AYC
My original post was really in answer to the immediately preceding post, where it was asked
I answered that using LHR and others as examples. Now I operate into LHR as my home base and have for the last 18 years. I consider that I know it pretty well having landed there about 1800 times and only having diverted twice and on both occasions having had in excess on 1 hours holding capability!
If by you saying that I am a 'Company Man', you mean that I wish to make sound commercial decisions, then I agree with you, for that is what I endeavour to do, to make the best commercial decision using all tools at my disposal - knowledge, gut feeling, statistics etc in order to maximise profit and hence secure my job into the future.
Yes, sometimes that can 'stretch' the comfort zone as to load an 'extra' 45 minutes fuel over and above statistical contingency means offloading payload, but that is what we are paid for, to use our superior knowledge to avoid having to use our superior skills. After all, loading extra fuel only delays the point at which you have to make the decision to commit or divert, and as I said, on both occcasions I had to divert from LHR, we had >1 hour holding capacity!
In my company, at least, the days of adding a 'tonne for mum' have long since gone - rightly so. If I think I need extra fuel I will load it, no questions asked.
As to fuel ladders, what are they, I have never seen them, although I believe that you can see your position on a list if you get a special code. I have never bothered, nor will I, and I have never been challenged on any decision I have made.
My original post was really in answer to the immediately preceding post, where it was asked
In HKG, nothing is specified so how much is comfort factor?
If by you saying that I am a 'Company Man', you mean that I wish to make sound commercial decisions, then I agree with you, for that is what I endeavour to do, to make the best commercial decision using all tools at my disposal - knowledge, gut feeling, statistics etc in order to maximise profit and hence secure my job into the future.
Yes, sometimes that can 'stretch' the comfort zone as to load an 'extra' 45 minutes fuel over and above statistical contingency means offloading payload, but that is what we are paid for, to use our superior knowledge to avoid having to use our superior skills. After all, loading extra fuel only delays the point at which you have to make the decision to commit or divert, and as I said, on both occcasions I had to divert from LHR, we had >1 hour holding capacity!
In my company, at least, the days of adding a 'tonne for mum' have long since gone - rightly so. If I think I need extra fuel I will load it, no questions asked.
As to fuel ladders, what are they, I have never seen them, although I believe that you can see your position on a list if you get a special code. I have never bothered, nor will I, and I have never been challenged on any decision I have made.
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oh bloomin eck
G'Day AYC!
I only said.... "You make it seem like a bad thing".
So lets just answer the man. 3%, 5%, 7.5%, 10% and get back on thread. Hope you haven't had a bad day.
Rgds
The "E"
I only said.... "You make it seem like a bad thing".
So lets just answer the man. 3%, 5%, 7.5%, 10% and get back on thread. Hope you haven't had a bad day.
Rgds
The "E"
Last edited by enicalyth; 19th Apr 2007 at 18:05.
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Why are we discussing anticipated arrival delays,forecast bad wx, local knowledge of extended routing etc in a thread about "contingency" fuel?
Those things are what "extra " fuel is for.
You can burn all your contingency at the holding point prior to departure.(assuming you never anticipated that hold and loaded "extra" gas to cover it)
If you are anticipating it it aint "contingency".That's for unforeseen things like non forecast headwinds or routings.
Those things are what "extra " fuel is for.
You can burn all your contingency at the holding point prior to departure.(assuming you never anticipated that hold and loaded "extra" gas to cover it)
If you are anticipating it it aint "contingency".That's for unforeseen things like non forecast headwinds or routings.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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B747-400. 5% or 5 tons. whichever is the lesser amount. On a re-dispatch plan 3%.
Don't arrive in the London TMA with less than 20 mins ADDITIONAL holding at peak times.
Bad weather forecast at destination then take sensible extra, no questions asked as long as reason given and met backs you up.
Don't arrive in the London TMA with less than 20 mins ADDITIONAL holding at peak times.
Bad weather forecast at destination then take sensible extra, no questions asked as long as reason given and met backs you up.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Those things are what "extra " fuel is for.
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Consider me corected BOAC .Thank God don't often pitch into LHR. Thankfully also no silly league tables or Spanish inquisitions to justify sensible loading of additional fuel at my mob. Outside the London Tma and north of Watford, anticipated holding fuel is still "extra".
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I agree with your sentiments . The CAA 'review' applies to ALL UK airline OPS, not just in/out of LHR, so your "anticipated holding fuel" should be 'trip' if you are CAA regulated.
The solution to 'nagging' fuel monitors is to get their home number and ring them to check your planned uplift is ok at 0330Z
. The CAA 'review' applies to ALL UK airline OPS, not just in/out of LHR, so your "anticipated holding fuel" should be 'trip' if you are CAA regulated.The solution to 'nagging' fuel monitors is to get their home number and ring them to check your planned uplift is ok at 0330Z
