major problems for airplane to chopper transition!!
Thread Starter
major problems for airplane to chopper transition!!
I was watching a chopper hover at low altitude one day and visually watching the pilot watch me watch him
It made me think about how different the two classes of airmen really are and how little the two types of flying have in common.
Are there any airplane/or chopper guys who crossed the line?
What was that experience like? and does it actually take longer for a pilot to crossover than for a complete novice?
What were the biggest difficulties you had in training?
What airplane habits are especially hazardous in a chopper?
How scary or difficult are autorotations?
What skills do tranlate if any?what's the very first time at the controls like?
Lastly, what is used a typical trainer for IFR and VFR operations?
Sorry, for so many questions, but I'd love to hear anyone's stories and experiences I'm sure a few real life accounts would adress my questions anyhow and I'm a sucker for good flying tales.
It made me think about how different the two classes of airmen really are and how little the two types of flying have in common.Are there any airplane/or chopper guys who crossed the line?
What was that experience like? and does it actually take longer for a pilot to crossover than for a complete novice?
What were the biggest difficulties you had in training?
What airplane habits are especially hazardous in a chopper?
How scary or difficult are autorotations?
What skills do tranlate if any?what's the very first time at the controls like?
Lastly, what is used a typical trainer for IFR and VFR operations?
Sorry, for so many questions, but I'd love to hear anyone's stories and experiences I'm sure a few real life accounts would adress my questions anyhow and I'm a sucker for good flying tales.
fixed wing v helicopter
Possibly this should be in the rotorheads section?
"Are there any airplane/or chopper guys who crossed the line?"
Yes, I did PPL(H) after flying fixed wing for over 10 years. I'm now ATPL(A) and CPL(H).
"What was that experience like? and does it actually take longer for a pilot to crossover than for a complete novice?"
What were the biggest difficulties you had in training?"It is annoying not to be fully in control of the aircraft initially - hovering is difficult until you 'get the feel'. I don't think it should take any longer to change over than ab initio - I managed to be ready for skill test in 34 hours heli, where the min is 45 for ab initio, or 39 for high hours fixed wing licence holders. Going back to being a student and feeling the compelling need to explain to your instructor WHY you did it wrong was difficult. As an instructor yourself, you know full well that he will have only a passing interest in why you did it wrong - he's already figured that out ahead of you!
"What airplane habits are especially hazardous in a chopper?"
Helicopters are certainly much less forgiving of mishandling than aerooplanes. An aeroplane can be recovered from many unusual attitudes / situations, but the same cannot be said of choppers. High hour fixed wing pilots are at risk of making some very dangerous mistakes in a chopper. For example, a (stall) warning buzzer in fixed wing should produce an almost immediate push forward on the stick to unstall the wing, as well as application of power. In a chopper, a similar (low rotor rpm) horn requires immediate attention, but a similar push forward on the cyclic will very likely be fatal, as this unloads the rotor, reducing rpm further, to possibly un-recoverable low rpm. Rather, the collective must be lowered immediately (effectively REDUCING power), rolling on throttle to regain rpm, and a REARWARD cyclic movement will load up the rotor disc, helping to increase the rpm. In other words, almost completely OPPOSITE reactions from fixed wing.
Negative or low g is also fatal in a chopper, but almost always harmless (if uncomfortable) in fixed wing. Bunting (diving) to avoid something in a chopper must be avoided at all costs.
"How scary or difficult are autorotations?"
They shouldn't be scary at all. As a student, when you don't fully understand the procedure fully, and it all seems very new, it can be a worry, especially if the low rotor rpm warning horn sounds momentarily. Once practiced with a good instructor, it soon becomes a pouting procedure, which is neither difficult nor scary. Autos to landing, without power are always potentially hazardous (as opposed to a powered recovery to the hover), as you must do things right, and there are few margins. These are practiced less often, possibly due to the very real risk of things not working out as planned.
"What skills do tranlate if any?what's the very first time at the controls like?"
All general aviating skills and knowledge, eg weather, airmanship, turbulence, navigation, rules of the air, airlaw, general common sense translate over perfectly, so you have a good head start. The controls are very different, and despite most fixed wing people's dream that they could fly a helicopter adequately if necessary, sadly this is not true. Flying one at normal speed might be OK, provided everything goes normally, but there is the risk of doing something fatally wrong at any time, and hovering would defeat even the luckiest fixed wing pilot until at least an hour or two practice alongside a patient instructor.
I hope this helps. Only a brief reply, as there is so much more to add, but please accept these brief intial thoughts to answer your interesting questions. Go take a half hour trial lesson - you'll love it!
"Are there any airplane/or chopper guys who crossed the line?"
Yes, I did PPL(H) after flying fixed wing for over 10 years. I'm now ATPL(A) and CPL(H).
"What was that experience like? and does it actually take longer for a pilot to crossover than for a complete novice?"
What were the biggest difficulties you had in training?"It is annoying not to be fully in control of the aircraft initially - hovering is difficult until you 'get the feel'. I don't think it should take any longer to change over than ab initio - I managed to be ready for skill test in 34 hours heli, where the min is 45 for ab initio, or 39 for high hours fixed wing licence holders. Going back to being a student and feeling the compelling need to explain to your instructor WHY you did it wrong was difficult. As an instructor yourself, you know full well that he will have only a passing interest in why you did it wrong - he's already figured that out ahead of you!
"What airplane habits are especially hazardous in a chopper?"
Helicopters are certainly much less forgiving of mishandling than aerooplanes. An aeroplane can be recovered from many unusual attitudes / situations, but the same cannot be said of choppers. High hour fixed wing pilots are at risk of making some very dangerous mistakes in a chopper. For example, a (stall) warning buzzer in fixed wing should produce an almost immediate push forward on the stick to unstall the wing, as well as application of power. In a chopper, a similar (low rotor rpm) horn requires immediate attention, but a similar push forward on the cyclic will very likely be fatal, as this unloads the rotor, reducing rpm further, to possibly un-recoverable low rpm. Rather, the collective must be lowered immediately (effectively REDUCING power), rolling on throttle to regain rpm, and a REARWARD cyclic movement will load up the rotor disc, helping to increase the rpm. In other words, almost completely OPPOSITE reactions from fixed wing.
Negative or low g is also fatal in a chopper, but almost always harmless (if uncomfortable) in fixed wing. Bunting (diving) to avoid something in a chopper must be avoided at all costs.
"How scary or difficult are autorotations?"
They shouldn't be scary at all. As a student, when you don't fully understand the procedure fully, and it all seems very new, it can be a worry, especially if the low rotor rpm warning horn sounds momentarily. Once practiced with a good instructor, it soon becomes a pouting procedure, which is neither difficult nor scary. Autos to landing, without power are always potentially hazardous (as opposed to a powered recovery to the hover), as you must do things right, and there are few margins. These are practiced less often, possibly due to the very real risk of things not working out as planned.
"What skills do tranlate if any?what's the very first time at the controls like?"
All general aviating skills and knowledge, eg weather, airmanship, turbulence, navigation, rules of the air, airlaw, general common sense translate over perfectly, so you have a good head start. The controls are very different, and despite most fixed wing people's dream that they could fly a helicopter adequately if necessary, sadly this is not true. Flying one at normal speed might be OK, provided everything goes normally, but there is the risk of doing something fatally wrong at any time, and hovering would defeat even the luckiest fixed wing pilot until at least an hour or two practice alongside a patient instructor.
I hope this helps. Only a brief reply, as there is so much more to add, but please accept these brief intial thoughts to answer your interesting questions. Go take a half hour trial lesson - you'll love it!
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Fixed wing to fling wing
Also have ALTP fixed wing and comm on fling wing and instruct on both. Was interesting to be an ab initio student again with 10 000 hrs.
Also to have 10 000hrs worth of confidence but only 50 hrs of experience.
Also to have 10 000hrs worth of confidence but only 50 hrs of experience.
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In my experience it is much easier for a rotor-wing pilot to convert to fixed-wing than the other way around.
My company purchased a brand new Bell 222 in 1981. The owner of the company decided that it would be a good idea if we fixed-wing pilots went to training to earn our helicopter rating. At the time we all thought it was great idea.
I started taking lessons in a Hughes 296 (I think that was it), a piston powered helicopter. After about 6 hours I was ready to turn in my fixed-wing ratings I so behind that blasted helicopter. However, I was able to fly our Bell 222 a few times and it was a whole lot easier than that piston power piece of evil. A few more hours in the Hughes and I was starting to get the hang of fly the blasted thing, well not flying it, that was easy, it was the hovering higher than 6 inches that had me in trouble.
Sadly our Bell 222 had a mechanical failure, drive link to the rotor hub broke in half, resulting in an in-flight breakup and our helicopter pilot (Barry Meeker), a Company Vice-President (the bosses best friend) and an investor were all killed. Total time on the helicopter was 117.1 hours since manufacture.
This tragic accident ended all helicopter activities for the company.
My company purchased a brand new Bell 222 in 1981. The owner of the company decided that it would be a good idea if we fixed-wing pilots went to training to earn our helicopter rating. At the time we all thought it was great idea.
I started taking lessons in a Hughes 296 (I think that was it), a piston powered helicopter. After about 6 hours I was ready to turn in my fixed-wing ratings I so behind that blasted helicopter. However, I was able to fly our Bell 222 a few times and it was a whole lot easier than that piston power piece of evil. A few more hours in the Hughes and I was starting to get the hang of fly the blasted thing, well not flying it, that was easy, it was the hovering higher than 6 inches that had me in trouble.
Sadly our Bell 222 had a mechanical failure, drive link to the rotor hub broke in half, resulting in an in-flight breakup and our helicopter pilot (Barry Meeker), a Company Vice-President (the bosses best friend) and an investor were all killed. Total time on the helicopter was 117.1 hours since manufacture.
This tragic accident ended all helicopter activities for the company.
con-pilot
Sorry to hear your sad story. I'm inclined to agree with you:
"In my experience it is much easier for a rotor-wing pilot to convert to fixed-wing than the other way around."
The best student I ever taught (fixed wing) was a Royal Navy helicopter pilot from RNAS Culdrose. I sent him solo on his first day, after just 3 hours tuition!
He came to learn to fly a Thruster (a rather quirky tail dragger 3 axis microlight, with minimal inertia and some quite demanding characteristics), and he flew it beautifully. The hardest thing was convincing him that there were so few checks to do, due to having no hydraulics / electrics etc. He took it upon himself to learn the simple checklist in his lunchtime, and he left me in no doubt that he could fly very proficiently, handling every 'emergency' I threw at him.
Now whether he was exceptionally gifted, or simply "the right stuff" as a product of being selected by the strict Royal Navy vetting procedures, I'll never know - but unlike most students, he didn't feel the need to argue about every check, about each mistake he made - he just got on, did as he was taught, learned the checks, and produced the goods! A real pleasure to have gifted students like that once in a while.
PM
Sorry to hear your sad story. I'm inclined to agree with you:
"In my experience it is much easier for a rotor-wing pilot to convert to fixed-wing than the other way around."
The best student I ever taught (fixed wing) was a Royal Navy helicopter pilot from RNAS Culdrose. I sent him solo on his first day, after just 3 hours tuition!
He came to learn to fly a Thruster (a rather quirky tail dragger 3 axis microlight, with minimal inertia and some quite demanding characteristics), and he flew it beautifully. The hardest thing was convincing him that there were so few checks to do, due to having no hydraulics / electrics etc. He took it upon himself to learn the simple checklist in his lunchtime, and he left me in no doubt that he could fly very proficiently, handling every 'emergency' I threw at him.
Now whether he was exceptionally gifted, or simply "the right stuff" as a product of being selected by the strict Royal Navy vetting procedures, I'll never know - but unlike most students, he didn't feel the need to argue about every check, about each mistake he made - he just got on, did as he was taught, learned the checks, and produced the goods! A real pleasure to have gifted students like that once in a while.
PM
With respect, PilotMike, your RN student would have already had a 100 plus hours FW (Bulldogs and JPs, or Firefly and Tuscano, depending on his vintage) so his familiarity with an aeroplane is not so surprising. However, I agree that able diligent students are a pleasure!
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Had many years of helo driving before I set off on the ATPL(A) route and I have to say it wasn't too difficult at all. I think the delights of having a full autopilot system soon lulls most into a sense of false security which just didn't exist in the helo world.
My technique was to wiggle the cyckic in the general direction of where I wanted to go and if it worked remember the position in case I wanted to do it again
worked for me for years!
Remember, its better to stop, then land then to land then stop!
W2P (Atpl (A)+(H))
My technique was to wiggle the cyckic in the general direction of where I wanted to go and if it worked remember the position in case I wanted to do it again
worked for me for years!Remember, its better to stop, then land then to land then stop!
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With respect, Mr 212, no RN Rotary stude I ever heard of had 100hrs FW (little more than half that, actually, either on Bulldog or Firefly) and no time at all in JP or Tucano - are you mixing up RN with RAF initial training perhaps?
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plank to egg whisk
I did fixed wing conversion to helicopter 5 years ago after 10 years fixed wing. The main reason was the added convenience of going from home direct to my destination. I still fly fixed wing too and do 150h/yr helo vs 125 hr/yr F/W.
Most important thing you need to learn when converting from FW is how to hold the thing in a stable hover and then you are away.
Trying to learn RT, navigation and airport etiquette at the same time (ab initio PPL(H)) would have been far harder.
So IMHO, fixed wing helped me as background, just remember which type of aircraft you are in at any particular time and whatever you do don't suddenly push the cyclic forward!
An aeroplane is a flying machine, a helicopter is a machine that flies!
SB
Most important thing you need to learn when converting from FW is how to hold the thing in a stable hover and then you are away.
Trying to learn RT, navigation and airport etiquette at the same time (ab initio PPL(H)) would have been far harder.
So IMHO, fixed wing helped me as background, just remember which type of aircraft you are in at any particular time and whatever you do don't suddenly push the cyclic forward!
An aeroplane is a flying machine, a helicopter is a machine that flies!
SB
Thread Starter
I wish to sincerely thank everybody who contributed and took the time to answer---sorry for a tardy reply but I had a conference in MIA. I feel inspired to try a trial flight. I know it WILL BE difficult but you all have peaked my curiosities.
I NEVER EVER EVER thought I can fly a chooper with no instruction
to me it LOOKS HARD!!! and based on the responses I know it IS hard!!!
P.,
I NEVER EVER EVER thought I can fly a chooper with no instruction
to me it LOOKS HARD!!! and based on the responses I know it IS hard!!!
P.,
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With respect, Mr 212, no RN Rotary stude I ever heard of had 100hrs FW (little more than half that, actually, either on Bulldog or Firefly)
I had no additional hours over the standard course hours allowed. The EFTS course was budgeted at 85 hours at the time IIRC.
Last edited by airborne_artist; 9th May 2007 at 11:55.
Thanks AA: I knew I wasn't entirely mad! Retrospectively, I realise that those guys I've met with JP time were chopped SHAR pilots that went rotary.
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As an aside for some good insight into flying helicopters after some fixed wing I'd suggest reading ChickenHawk. There are some great early on chapters where he's fighting the thing to just do anything.
I enjoyed it a lot.
I enjoyed it a lot.
