min rwy width B737
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: italy
Age: 42
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
min rwy width B737
Hello......
About the aerodorme reference reference code, the B737 is 4 C.... Is somebody knowing the minimum rwy with for 737? is it 45m?
About the aerodorme reference reference code, the B737 is 4 C.... Is somebody knowing the minimum rwy with for 737? is it 45m?
Prof. Airport Engineer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia (mostly)
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For normal operations, the 737 runway width requirement is 45m, but yes, it does operate on 30m under certain restrictions. These vary between countries and airlines, but typically include:
Limitations:
- Minimum runway width 30m
- autoland is not allowed
- specific approval by Department of Aviation and Chief Pilot
- more restrictive cross wind limits, visibility requirements and crew qualifications
Dispatch from/to narrow runways is not allowed in case of:
- nose wheel steering inoperative
- one brake or more inoperative.
Furthermore some VMCG corrections have to be applied for takeoff performance calculations.
Limitations:
- Minimum runway width 30m
- autoland is not allowed
- specific approval by Department of Aviation and Chief Pilot
- more restrictive cross wind limits, visibility requirements and crew qualifications
Dispatch from/to narrow runways is not allowed in case of:
- nose wheel steering inoperative
- one brake or more inoperative.
Furthermore some VMCG corrections have to be applied for takeoff performance calculations.
Prof. Airport Engineer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia (mostly)
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, ICAO 4C is a minimum of 45m wide. The 737 ops into a narrower runway are done under concession.
Some background to runway width required, and some work done on this, is at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114235
Quoting JT from that thread who wrote about a rational handling assessment for aircraft intended to be operated from lesser width runways:
Some background to runway width required, and some work done on this, is at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114235
Quoting JT from that thread who wrote about a rational handling assessment for aircraft intended to be operated from lesser width runways:
The concerns were purely operation .. regarding
(a) CL deviations during a failure for reject/continue cases
(b) worst case considerations for the wet runway case
(c) late final landing manoeuvring following a misaligned letdown and a side-step manoeuvre .. wonderful to watch from the ground ..
The main thing to come out of the work was that the lateral deviations can be a bit hairy depending on the proximity to Vmcg at Vef and, of course, depending on crosswind.
(a) CL deviations during a failure for reject/continue cases
(b) worst case considerations for the wet runway case
(c) late final landing manoeuvring following a misaligned letdown and a side-step manoeuvre .. wonderful to watch from the ground ..
The main thing to come out of the work was that the lateral deviations can be a bit hairy depending on the proximity to Vmcg at Vef and, of course, depending on crosswind.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lausanne
Age: 47
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of the smaller Greek island airports have 30m wide runways eg Karpathos, Skiathos, Zakinthos.
Apart 737s and A320s in summer there even seem to be operations with 757s and 767s in Zakinthos.
Apart 737s and A320s in summer there even seem to be operations with 757s and 767s in Zakinthos.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Europe-the sunshine side
Posts: 755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did some search and I couldn't find any special restriction or requirement about 30 m width rwy,and 737 operation.
Could you give me some hint where to find an airport reference code,or requirements for the 737 on a 30m wide rwy?
I seem to remember reading about this in our OM,but I couldn't find it any more.Maybe it was removed due to the fact that we now often operate on some 30 m wide rwy's.
So,where is it , in ICAO,Jarops 1 ...?
Could you give me some hint where to find an airport reference code,or requirements for the 737 on a 30m wide rwy?
I seem to remember reading about this in our OM,but I couldn't find it any more.Maybe it was removed due to the fact that we now often operate on some 30 m wide rwy's.
So,where is it , in ICAO,Jarops 1 ...?
Only half a speed-brake
alex / id:
My memory may be fading, but the 737 (-500/400) I've flown had RWY width limitation of 30 meters and certainly were used that way, JAR OPS1 operator. Nowhere I had seen 45m number. The 320, on the other hand, has 45m NOMINAL width requirement, in FCOM 2 you'll find chapter operation on narrow runways and observing that (and certain paperwork) you can go to 30m as well.
link
I suppose the 45m 737 requirement was for the NG, that has noticeably larger wingspan, perhaps?
My memory may be fading, but the 737 (-500/400) I've flown had RWY width limitation of 30 meters and certainly were used that way, JAR OPS1 operator. Nowhere I had seen 45m number. The 320, on the other hand, has 45m NOMINAL width requirement, in FCOM 2 you'll find chapter operation on narrow runways and observing that (and certain paperwork) you can go to 30m as well.
link
I suppose the 45m 737 requirement was for the NG, that has noticeably larger wingspan, perhaps?
Prof. Airport Engineer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia (mostly)
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICAO use a code system, known as the Aerodrome Reference Code, to specify the standards for individual aerodrome facilities which are suitable for use by aeroplanes within a range of performances and sizes. The Code is composed of two elements: element 1 is a number related to the aeroplane reference field length; and element 2 is a letter related to the aeroplane wingspan and outer main gear wheel span. Thus 4C is an aeroplane reference field length greater than 1800m (4) and wingspan 24m to less than 36m/outer main gear span of 6m to less than 9m (C). This detail (and all the limits) is found in the ICAO aerodromes manual, and the UK CAP 168 at section 2.2, and in similar publications from other countries. The linkage between aerodrome reference code and minimum runway width is found in the same publications, such as section 3.2 of the CAP 168 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP168.PDF
Note that the aeroplane reference field length is solely for the selection of a Code number and should not be confused with operational runway length requirements, which are influenced by other factors. [I like to think of it as TORR for accountants <grin>]
This ICAO Aerodrome Reference Code is not the same as the JAR-OPS aeroplane category which is related to indicated airspeed at threshold (such as JAR-OPS 1 Subpart E, Appendix 2 to JAR-OPS 1.430c). Confusingly, the codes look similar. There was a Tech Log post a couple of years ago where the circling minima (which were in terms of aeroplane category) were linked to the runway strip width (in terms of aerodrome reference code) and it had me confused for quite a while until I turned up a simplistic rule of thumb that the bit where the aircraft is on the ground is dominated by the ICAO Aerodrome Reference Code, and the bit when it is in the air it is dominated by the JAR-OPS aeroplane category. The link between operations, JAR-OPS, and the aerodrome reference code is found cryptically in JAR-OPS 1.220 where
All model B737s are code 4C aircraft, from the -200 throught to the -900. The A320 is a code 4C aircraft. The A310 is a code 4D aircraft (like all widebodies and the longer narrowbodies including the B757-200).
There are lists published of aircraft with their ICAO aerodrome reference codes to save having to work it out each time. The Australian list is in Chapter 2.1.6 of their MOS139. The Transport Canada have another list. The Oz one is here: http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/139/139m02.pdf
It is interesting to see the interpretation of this requirement in action. If the aerodrome is not adequate for the type of aeroplane/operation under JAR-OPS 1.220 (and I think that failure to meet ICAO runway width might be such a case), then the operator/authority must do something to make it adequate. This is done here by adjusting the operation to make the aerodrome suitable. Putting operational limitations in place to cope with the effect of reduced width is a way of doing this (such as those limits discussed in earlier posts), and clearly is a common enough action.
I am familiar with B737 ops on 30m wide runways - both the -400 and the -800 series. They are normal at several Australian aerodromes, such as Ayres Rock and the busy Gold Coast/Coolangatta; even though the bulk of Australian 737 operations are on 45m wide runways. I have seen the written dispensation by CASA to the operator for at least one of these 30m runway operations, and it was an open-ended dispensation [that is, it was without time limit although I think there were some operational restrictions]. I reckon there must be some such dispensation in place covering operations at other 30m wide runways elsewhere in the world, because this ICAO runway width requirement is a very long standing one and not easy to ignore.
Note that the aeroplane reference field length is solely for the selection of a Code number and should not be confused with operational runway length requirements, which are influenced by other factors. [I like to think of it as TORR for accountants <grin>]
This ICAO Aerodrome Reference Code is not the same as the JAR-OPS aeroplane category which is related to indicated airspeed at threshold (such as JAR-OPS 1 Subpart E, Appendix 2 to JAR-OPS 1.430c). Confusingly, the codes look similar. There was a Tech Log post a couple of years ago where the circling minima (which were in terms of aeroplane category) were linked to the runway strip width (in terms of aerodrome reference code) and it had me confused for quite a while until I turned up a simplistic rule of thumb that the bit where the aircraft is on the ground is dominated by the ICAO Aerodrome Reference Code, and the bit when it is in the air it is dominated by the JAR-OPS aeroplane category. The link between operations, JAR-OPS, and the aerodrome reference code is found cryptically in JAR-OPS 1.220 where
An operator shall only authorise use of aerodromes that are adequate for the type(s) of aeroplanes and operation(s) concerned
There are lists published of aircraft with their ICAO aerodrome reference codes to save having to work it out each time. The Australian list is in Chapter 2.1.6 of their MOS139. The Transport Canada have another list. The Oz one is here: http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/139/139m02.pdf
It is interesting to see the interpretation of this requirement in action. If the aerodrome is not adequate for the type of aeroplane/operation under JAR-OPS 1.220 (and I think that failure to meet ICAO runway width might be such a case), then the operator/authority must do something to make it adequate. This is done here by adjusting the operation to make the aerodrome suitable. Putting operational limitations in place to cope with the effect of reduced width is a way of doing this (such as those limits discussed in earlier posts), and clearly is a common enough action.
I am familiar with B737 ops on 30m wide runways - both the -400 and the -800 series. They are normal at several Australian aerodromes, such as Ayres Rock and the busy Gold Coast/Coolangatta; even though the bulk of Australian 737 operations are on 45m wide runways. I have seen the written dispensation by CASA to the operator for at least one of these 30m runway operations, and it was an open-ended dispensation [that is, it was without time limit although I think there were some operational restrictions]. I reckon there must be some such dispensation in place covering operations at other 30m wide runways elsewhere in the world, because this ICAO runway width requirement is a very long standing one and not easy to ignore.
Moderator
Does anybody has an extract from OM or similar publication specifying under which conditions rwy width can be reduced to 30m foe B737?
Be a tad careful. Normally, most States will adopt the ICAO practices. If not the usual variation can be published. Generally, an individual State will determine under what conditions concessions may be granted .. and such conditions may vary from State to State .. ie, if you get access to OM data from operator A .. it may not have much relevance to your operation around the other side of the globe.
Be a tad careful. Normally, most States will adopt the ICAO practices. If not the usual variation can be published. Generally, an individual State will determine under what conditions concessions may be granted .. and such conditions may vary from State to State .. ie, if you get access to OM data from operator A .. it may not have much relevance to your operation around the other side of the globe.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing has a special takeoff analysis program for operating the B737 from narrow runways, although, under the FAA system they do not have any limitation on the runway width.
Mutt
Mutt
Some years ago but remember having to take off from a snowy DUB in a -400, just after they'd reopened for an Air Ambulance flight.
The CLEARED WIDTH was 30m. The airfield was to be closed again indefinitely for snow clearance afterwards.
Only other OM restrictions were a snow banks limit of, IIRC, 50cms., no crosswind and usually braking/reverser restrictions.
(Strange thing was that ATC would not allow a Fungus 73' to depart, saying conditions were outside his limits ???)
The CLEARED WIDTH was 30m. The airfield was to be closed again indefinitely for snow clearance afterwards.
Only other OM restrictions were a snow banks limit of, IIRC, 50cms., no crosswind and usually braking/reverser restrictions.
(Strange thing was that ATC would not allow a Fungus 73' to depart, saying conditions were outside his limits ???)
Join Date: May 2000
Location: ATLANTIS
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 737 classic and ng even lands well on a 28m wide strip as was the case on Mayote.
Off-course with the nessessary V1 and weight/thrust calculations involved. Piece of cake.... The acft doesn't know the width of the runway involved....
Fly safe QTA
Off-course with the nessessary V1 and weight/thrust calculations involved. Piece of cake.... The acft doesn't know the width of the runway involved....
Fly safe QTA
Southampton (SOU) Rwy 20/02 is I think 37m wide and sees regular-ish 737 Ops (eg, European/Titan when flying for Flybe). Has seen the odd 757/320 aswell, esp in Summer.