744 rotation vibration
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Considerably Bemused Wannabe
Joined: May 2003
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From: UK
744 rotation vibration
Hi,
Last month I made a few trips on Qantas 744's. This only happened on one of the flights. Departing Singapore for Sydney, immediately after rotation and lift-off the aircraft began to vibrate. Not violently, but it was a notable vibration and a few over-head bins opened due to it. A few passengers gasped, one women screamed "oh my god" (there's always a screamer!). It lasted about 10-15 seconds. After that, the flight smoothed out the CC were soon after released to start the service.
No explanation from the flight Crew. I didn't think it warranted explanation but I heard lots of passengers asking the CC what had happened - they didn't know.
I was sitting over the wing, so my assumption was - it was the wheels braking as they rotated into the undercarriage bay. I couldn't think of anything else (I’m not a pilot). The only thing is I've flown on many 744's, and sat in similar locations on the plane, and have never experienced this before.
Can anyone else offer alternative explanations?
Cheers,
eP.
Last month I made a few trips on Qantas 744's. This only happened on one of the flights. Departing Singapore for Sydney, immediately after rotation and lift-off the aircraft began to vibrate. Not violently, but it was a notable vibration and a few over-head bins opened due to it. A few passengers gasped, one women screamed "oh my god" (there's always a screamer!). It lasted about 10-15 seconds. After that, the flight smoothed out the CC were soon after released to start the service.
No explanation from the flight Crew. I didn't think it warranted explanation but I heard lots of passengers asking the CC what had happened - they didn't know.
I was sitting over the wing, so my assumption was - it was the wheels braking as they rotated into the undercarriage bay. I couldn't think of anything else (I’m not a pilot). The only thing is I've flown on many 744's, and sat in similar locations on the plane, and have never experienced this before.
Can anyone else offer alternative explanations?
Cheers,
eP.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,204
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From: Seattle
Happens frequently on the 747. Unbalanced nosewheels, usually precipitated by changing 1 at a time instead of the pair. Gyroscopic effects as the gear swing up and the wheels spin down make it worse.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,011
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From: Hampshire, UK
The 747 uses pretty fast airborne speeds. What you are hearing and feeling is the wheels all spinning at high speed. During the retraction sequence of the main undercarriage, brakes are applied automatically so that debris is not thrown around inside the undercarriage bay. You should only hear this near the wheels- in just a short distance away in the cabin, it will be inaudible- that is why other people and the crew are unconcerned- they didn't hear it!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
well before retract?
Registered User **
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127
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From: UK
Me thinks it's worn (but safe) wheel bearings. Eg....(for pilots) Doing 85-90mph down M6 in car with worn bearings. At this speed and if possible one could lift the car from road surface turn 45deg wow would you gets some vibs in the body work. MD80 bearings are well know for this vibration. Some ladies of a certain age enjoy the effect.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 459
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From: UK
Reason is often main wheels outer balance, they can shake a little before spin-down brakes stop them as gear is stowed away after T/O.
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In the perfect world, balance is maintained by wheels being stopped at a random point during gear up operation and so touch-down wear and tear is spread over many points of the tyre, so the wheels/tyres are kept in balance during the time fitted to the aircraft.
.
However random is random and tyres can get outer balance, plus if spin-down system is not perfect, wheels can tend to stop in a similar location after gear up operation, means touch-down wear and tear may often be the same place, this will get them well outer balance and can get heavy vibs until wheels are stopped during gear up.
.
Seem to remember wheels are braked by alt-anti-skid during gear up ops, if system a bit crook, some wheels tend to stop at common places and lose the random effect, mix that with number of cycles and vibs can follow, all fixed when new wheels/tyres fitted, however apart the vibs/noise no need to worry, the 744 gear is most strong.
.
In the perfect world, balance is maintained by wheels being stopped at a random point during gear up operation and so touch-down wear and tear is spread over many points of the tyre, so the wheels/tyres are kept in balance during the time fitted to the aircraft.
.
However random is random and tyres can get outer balance, plus if spin-down system is not perfect, wheels can tend to stop in a similar location after gear up operation, means touch-down wear and tear may often be the same place, this will get them well outer balance and can get heavy vibs until wheels are stopped during gear up.
.
Seem to remember wheels are braked by alt-anti-skid during gear up ops, if system a bit crook, some wheels tend to stop at common places and lose the random effect, mix that with number of cycles and vibs can follow, all fixed when new wheels/tyres fitted, however apart the vibs/noise no need to worry, the 744 gear is most strong.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,011
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From: Hampshire, UK
I don't know if it's worn wheel bearings or out of balance wheels in an unloaded condition rotating rapidly after lift off and possibly at various speeds for different wheels hitting their resonant rotatin speed. My father's Ford Anglia used to do it something horrible above 55mph, but modern cars never do it now (well, not BMWs!). Definitely no stall burble!
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: UK
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,909
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From: England
I experienced this as a pax on a rainy BA departure from DXB. Was accompanied by some amazing wing-flex. Not that they were related but naturally everyone was on the seat of their pants and 'omagodding'. Not helped when my little daughter shouted out "It's raining! yeah!!!!" 
Tsamaya sentle
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 154
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From: Germany
Noticed that many times on the 744 and been wondering about it for many years. Short and fast vib immediately after lift-off, noticeable in the entire cabin. Finally Joetom and others have come up with an explanation that seems pretty plausible to me. Thanks!
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: blue yonder
There are a lot of explanations to this 'problem'... one of them being out of balance wheels / under inflation / new- old tyres. Happens even before gear retraction, esp on heavy weight t/o - higher rotation speeds.
Need to mention though, during the gear retraction phase, anti-skid and all are deactivated. Mostly the sound is from the nose gear and as no braking available there, there is a rub pad to do the job which further accentuates the problem.
Need to mention though, during the gear retraction phase, anti-skid and all are deactivated. Mostly the sound is from the nose gear and as no braking available there, there is a rub pad to do the job which further accentuates the problem.
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: OZ
744 Vibration
Hello all. This topic has been covered several times on the prune before but I can’t find it with the search engine so here goes.
On the 744 when the gear is selected up the gear doors open. When the gear doors are open a hydraulic sequence valve positioned by the right hand doors ports hydraulics to an actuator (de-spin actuator) which actuates the alternate brake metering valve in the r/h wheel well which is meant to stop the wheels spinning before the gear is swung into the wheel bay. The braking pressure on retraction is sufficient to stop the wheels turning within a revolution. I have seen this when trouble shooting the defect, white stripes were painted on the tyres and high speed film on take off.
Either the sequence valve or de-spin actuator wears ( I can’t remember which) and insufficient pressure is supplied to stop the wheels turning before retraction which results in some fairly violent vibration being felt in the cabin. It has been happing since the first aircraft arrived and a “mod” program fixed the issue in early days but the aircraft are getting older and thing must be getting worn again.
This is what causes the vibration, unnerving but no great drama
Large wheels are balance statically you will see balance weights on the hubs.
When trouble shooting this problem a full set of brand new "balanced wheels were fitted and the result was still the same cabin vibration and someone mentioned worn wheel bearings. I have never changed a wheel assy without a fresh set of bearings being installed with it.
Hope this helps
On the 744 when the gear is selected up the gear doors open. When the gear doors are open a hydraulic sequence valve positioned by the right hand doors ports hydraulics to an actuator (de-spin actuator) which actuates the alternate brake metering valve in the r/h wheel well which is meant to stop the wheels spinning before the gear is swung into the wheel bay. The braking pressure on retraction is sufficient to stop the wheels turning within a revolution. I have seen this when trouble shooting the defect, white stripes were painted on the tyres and high speed film on take off.
Either the sequence valve or de-spin actuator wears ( I can’t remember which) and insufficient pressure is supplied to stop the wheels turning before retraction which results in some fairly violent vibration being felt in the cabin. It has been happing since the first aircraft arrived and a “mod” program fixed the issue in early days but the aircraft are getting older and thing must be getting worn again.
This is what causes the vibration, unnerving but no great drama
glhcarl How and why are large aircraft tires balanced? I have yet to find a place that balances large aircraft tires. Why would you balance them, after the first landing the balance would be gone?
In the perfect world, balance is maintained by wheels being stopped at a random point during gear up operation and so touch-down wear and tear is spread over many points of the tyre, so the wheels/tyres are kept in balance during the time fitted to the aircraft.
.
However random is random and tyres can get outer balance, plus if spin-down system is not perfect, wheels can tend to stop in a similar location after gear up operation, means touch-down wear and tear may often be the same place, this will get them well outer balance and can get heavy vibs until wheels are stopped during gear up.
.
However random is random and tyres can get outer balance, plus if spin-down system is not perfect, wheels can tend to stop in a similar location after gear up operation, means touch-down wear and tear may often be the same place, this will get them well outer balance and can get heavy vibs until wheels are stopped during gear up.
Hope this helps
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 459
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From: UK
Seem to remember, if you want to stop the vibs after T/O, inspect all the main gear tyres, those that show uneven wear(low spots), replace and vibs will be better, replace the offending altn brake valve/s and problem should not come back.
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The wheels loose the random effect when said altn brake valve/s do not operate in correct fashion, often providing a lower pressure than is reqd and so lets the wheel stop at a hi-spot on the brake unit.
.
Happy flying to all in 2007
.
The wheels loose the random effect when said altn brake valve/s do not operate in correct fashion, often providing a lower pressure than is reqd and so lets the wheel stop at a hi-spot on the brake unit.
.
Happy flying to all in 2007
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 350
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From: australia
Seem to remember, if you want to stop the vibs after T/O, inspect all the main gear tyres, those that show uneven wear(low spots), replace and vibs will be better, replace the offending altn brake valve/s and problem should not come back.
.
The wheels loose the random effect when said altn brake valve/s do not operate in correct fashion, often providing a lower pressure than is reqd and so lets the wheel stop at a hi-spot on the brake unit.
.
Happy flying to all in 2007
.
The wheels loose the random effect when said altn brake valve/s do not operate in correct fashion, often providing a lower pressure than is reqd and so lets the wheel stop at a hi-spot on the brake unit.
.
Happy flying to all in 2007
most flat spots ,if all on one bogy are caused by low accumulator pressure in the wing and body gear wheel wells on 744