Plate briefings
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
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From: Roaming
Plate briefings
Hello to all , I need some viewpoints from pilots and other forms of aviation and tell me what the CAA would think of companies not having the dicipline of having published approach in front of the person flying the metal and relying totally on your NFP to call the relevent calls.
I have just started in a biz jet enviroment and am shocked that only one person holds the information.And from the other forum it seems I am hitting a brick wall. Is is me or do airliners also have the policy of only one approach plate on the flight deck? The reasons I have had from the Biz jet forum is CRM will sort this out, and it works if you have time to brief, and there isnt anough room for a another Jeppesen. I dont know about you but if someone tells me factual information in a matter of minutes (like a pre approach brief) half of it I have forgotten.
In the absence of good CRM/MCC/ on screen appraoches, what ensures the safety of the flight at a unfimilar airport? It just seems to much like driving the car whilst my partner has the map and you get annoyed beacuse you they misundertsand what they percieve even though at the beginning of the journey you spoke about it before you got into the car!
I used to fly with allsorts of nationalites where english was never a primary language so it was always SOP and good practice to be able to view the procedure at anytime. I can only go with the flow and follow my comapnies line but feel quite strongly nevertheless.It clearly is working so far for some I just hope one never gets into a situation where one day someone somebody someday makes a misleading statement half an hour after the brief. You cannot see words of course and a picture as they say says a thousand words and insures against this surley?
In time once I am used to this concept with my operator I will no doubt get used to it .CFIT accidents are more common in Corporate and Private aviation and it does make me wonder if this ever played role.After having a debate about it the otherday I though let me seek pprune!
Shucks maybe I picked the wrong type of aviation!
I have just started in a biz jet enviroment and am shocked that only one person holds the information.And from the other forum it seems I am hitting a brick wall. Is is me or do airliners also have the policy of only one approach plate on the flight deck? The reasons I have had from the Biz jet forum is CRM will sort this out, and it works if you have time to brief, and there isnt anough room for a another Jeppesen. I dont know about you but if someone tells me factual information in a matter of minutes (like a pre approach brief) half of it I have forgotten.
In the absence of good CRM/MCC/ on screen appraoches, what ensures the safety of the flight at a unfimilar airport? It just seems to much like driving the car whilst my partner has the map and you get annoyed beacuse you they misundertsand what they percieve even though at the beginning of the journey you spoke about it before you got into the car!
I used to fly with allsorts of nationalites where english was never a primary language so it was always SOP and good practice to be able to view the procedure at anytime. I can only go with the flow and follow my comapnies line but feel quite strongly nevertheless.It clearly is working so far for some I just hope one never gets into a situation where one day someone somebody someday makes a misleading statement half an hour after the brief. You cannot see words of course and a picture as they say says a thousand words and insures against this surley?
In time once I am used to this concept with my operator I will no doubt get used to it .CFIT accidents are more common in Corporate and Private aviation and it does make me wonder if this ever played role.After having a debate about it the otherday I though let me seek pprune!
Shucks maybe I picked the wrong type of aviation!
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Glasgow
Can't comment on what the CAA would say but i'm sure they'll be, or have been along for a ride with your company at some point assuming it's UK registered etc etc.
From the airline perspective we tend to carry two sets of all approach plates en-route charts and supplements. Even my previous company flying TP's where space was at a premium we carried two sets (although limited to UK and near continent airfields).
At present my current company (UK Charter) has two each binders with 'everyday' airfields in and another three or four each with the others stored aft of each pilot along with all the other charts and books packed in with them.
I can perfectly understand that space is at a premium on many biz a/c and some of my collegues coming from the corporate world had similar issues.
My personal approach
would be to brief with the chart held between you and then set the aids/fmc up as you go or just after briefing if possible. Certainly if you are to be PF then it seems logical for you to have the chart on your side for quick reference and hand it over if required. I reckon you, as PF will be needing reference to it more than PNF, this is in an ideal world with an ideal world ILS.
On a non precision approach I think I personally would keep the chart my side for descent/approach planning/set up and then swap before getting to a critical phase i.e. altitude/height checks and calls. During a go-around i'm sure your collegue can assist in navigating the a/c around the hoops.
CRM is an easy answer but many you fly with may not demonstrate or think they require such training. It does seem a little unusual (from an airline point of view) to rely on memory for setting up aids and minima etc especially for unfamilliar airfields, but a lot of the info can be put into the FMC or noted down somewhere if the company insists on this way of briefing.
On a short sector and me PF i'd keep the plate as long as practical and you can better monitor what's being done etc. Or get them to fit dual EFB's
Interesting to hear others views....
Hope this helps
PP
From the airline perspective we tend to carry two sets of all approach plates en-route charts and supplements. Even my previous company flying TP's where space was at a premium we carried two sets (although limited to UK and near continent airfields).
At present my current company (UK Charter) has two each binders with 'everyday' airfields in and another three or four each with the others stored aft of each pilot along with all the other charts and books packed in with them.
I can perfectly understand that space is at a premium on many biz a/c and some of my collegues coming from the corporate world had similar issues.
My personal approach
would be to brief with the chart held between you and then set the aids/fmc up as you go or just after briefing if possible. Certainly if you are to be PF then it seems logical for you to have the chart on your side for quick reference and hand it over if required. I reckon you, as PF will be needing reference to it more than PNF, this is in an ideal world with an ideal world ILS. On a non precision approach I think I personally would keep the chart my side for descent/approach planning/set up and then swap before getting to a critical phase i.e. altitude/height checks and calls. During a go-around i'm sure your collegue can assist in navigating the a/c around the hoops.
CRM is an easy answer but many you fly with may not demonstrate or think they require such training. It does seem a little unusual (from an airline point of view) to rely on memory for setting up aids and minima etc especially for unfamilliar airfields, but a lot of the info can be put into the FMC or noted down somewhere if the company insists on this way of briefing.
On a short sector and me PF i'd keep the plate as long as practical and you can better monitor what's being done etc. Or get them to fit dual EFB's
Interesting to hear others views....
Hope this helps
PP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 662
Likes: 5
From: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
The CAA answer is that you should have two sets of plates, and since most corporate operators these days use JeppView, just hitting "2" on number of copies to print covers it.
However, it is realistically often the case in corporate flying that you are going somewhere on short notice so that the time or even paper to print two sets of 30 odd pages is not available
Assuming that your f/o is reasonably competent (which may be rash depending on your company), then the non-handling pilot should have the plate after the briefing. This way the handling pilot can concentrate on flying and ask the other pilot what heading/track/altitude to fly, or if the non-handling person is reasonably switched on they don't need to be asked as they supply the information they would require if they were flying - or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
However, it is realistically often the case in corporate flying that you are going somewhere on short notice so that the time or even paper to print two sets of 30 odd pages is not available
Assuming that your f/o is reasonably competent (which may be rash depending on your company), then the non-handling pilot should have the plate after the briefing. This way the handling pilot can concentrate on flying and ask the other pilot what heading/track/altitude to fly, or if the non-handling person is reasonably switched on they don't need to be asked as they supply the information they would require if they were flying - or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
