F/O decisions CRM
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
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From: Europe
Thanks guys!
I am so happy with all these answers and I am hoping for more.
I feel the need to elabarate the scenarios somewhat; both have happend, both were in T/Ps (agile ones but over 20t) both in flagcarriers. The captains are not the same, but both flew russian build heavy jets before. The F/O is not the same and none of the F/Os are inexperienced. Language was a big problem as both captains only spoke very basic english. (To them, hardly working and working hard are synonym) One of the cases was reported. But the only result was that the F/O was told of for criticising the captain. So the lesson was
.
Here is another scenario:
The captains approach breif includes flying a CATII approch to a CATI airfield. You protest, but he sets RA to 100, and seems to take no notice of you. You tell him again that this airport has no CATII, but he tells you that he has his own personal minimas!
(as you can probably tell from the spelling I am not a native english speaker myself)
I feel the need to elabarate the scenarios somewhat; both have happend, both were in T/Ps (agile ones but over 20t) both in flagcarriers. The captains are not the same, but both flew russian build heavy jets before. The F/O is not the same and none of the F/Os are inexperienced. Language was a big problem as both captains only spoke very basic english. (To them, hardly working and working hard are synonym) One of the cases was reported. But the only result was that the F/O was told of for criticising the captain. So the lesson was
.Here is another scenario:
The captains approach breif includes flying a CATII approch to a CATI airfield. You protest, but he sets RA to 100, and seems to take no notice of you. You tell him again that this airport has no CATII, but he tells you that he has his own personal minimas!
(as you can probably tell from the spelling I am not a native english speaker myself)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 181
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From: limbo
Blackcoffeenosugar, We could sit here and make up scenarios all day, it is all a bit pointless though, sitting at our Computers we all do the right thing and know all the answers. How you will react in the heat of the moment is another thing entirely.
As for ignoring SOPs, approach gates and airfram limitations etc, it is a difficult position for any Captain to put in an F/O in intentionally and most appreciate this and don't do it in the first place. Thankfully foolish remarks and attitudes like 411As are becoming less common in the industry.
In relation to unstable approaches, A large European low cost airline I am familiar with has had a high incident rate recently. I had the opportunity to see these incidents replayed on a computer program that used the FLIDRAS data to display the flightpath with a display of the aircraft from the outside in relation to the airfield and the runway (think Flightsim style) with the engine parameters and the Primary flight display (ADI, VSI etc). These incidents were quite shocking and frightening into how dangerous a situation and how far they were allowed to develop before a halt was called. No Crew sets out to intentionally let these happen.
Interestingly they were all flown by the Captain. This is a point made not that the F/Os can get one up on the Captains but it shows thet Captain suffer from Task overload/saturation along with F/Os. They suffer to such a point that they become incapacitated to an extent. However in the case of the F/O being the Pilot flying the natural Cockpit Gradient means a Capt would have no hesitation in calling a Go Around when an unstable situation develops. When a Captain gets overloaded, and lets face it; is suffering a form if incapacitation, for a F/O to assert his/her position is by the very virtue of the gradient and rank not always the easiest thing to do.
The company I am familiar with has changed the callouts on approach from "500" (Feet) to "500, Continue" in the case of all being well to "500, Go Around" in the case of an unstable approach. The thinking being that it obliges the F/O to say something, and not sit in Silence. It is also a timely prompt for a Capt. suffering a mild form of incapacitation.
A "text book" example of this scenario:http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/6946-0.pdf
As for ignoring SOPs, approach gates and airfram limitations etc, it is a difficult position for any Captain to put in an F/O in intentionally and most appreciate this and don't do it in the first place. Thankfully foolish remarks and attitudes like 411As are becoming less common in the industry.
In relation to unstable approaches, A large European low cost airline I am familiar with has had a high incident rate recently. I had the opportunity to see these incidents replayed on a computer program that used the FLIDRAS data to display the flightpath with a display of the aircraft from the outside in relation to the airfield and the runway (think Flightsim style) with the engine parameters and the Primary flight display (ADI, VSI etc). These incidents were quite shocking and frightening into how dangerous a situation and how far they were allowed to develop before a halt was called. No Crew sets out to intentionally let these happen.
Interestingly they were all flown by the Captain. This is a point made not that the F/Os can get one up on the Captains but it shows thet Captain suffer from Task overload/saturation along with F/Os. They suffer to such a point that they become incapacitated to an extent. However in the case of the F/O being the Pilot flying the natural Cockpit Gradient means a Capt would have no hesitation in calling a Go Around when an unstable situation develops. When a Captain gets overloaded, and lets face it; is suffering a form if incapacitation, for a F/O to assert his/her position is by the very virtue of the gradient and rank not always the easiest thing to do.
The company I am familiar with has changed the callouts on approach from "500" (Feet) to "500, Continue" in the case of all being well to "500, Go Around" in the case of an unstable approach. The thinking being that it obliges the F/O to say something, and not sit in Silence. It is also a timely prompt for a Capt. suffering a mild form of incapacitation.
A "text book" example of this scenario:http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/6946-0.pdf
Last edited by Carmoisine; 20th November 2006 at 12:53.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 181
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From: limbo
Well then you need to start filing some reports, it sounds like you are part of an appaling (Lack of) Safety Culture. If it doesn't change then time to find a new job before you find yourself being a part of a large smoking hole in the ground.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Just did!
I left! But it was difficult leaving with nowhere to go. Life changes when you have no income.
The company did not see this as a problem, and there were plenty more of those examples. Although I have worked for other airlines before, I but began to wonder whether this was normal. Therefore the answers to this thread are very appreciated, and they are reassuring for me to read. Proving to me that most of you see this the same way I do. And that leaving with no job to go to was infact a good idea.
Heheh now that is all sorted though! Got a new job and am now back on track!
Again, thanks very much everybody!
The company did not see this as a problem, and there were plenty more of those examples. Although I have worked for other airlines before, I but began to wonder whether this was normal. Therefore the answers to this thread are very appreciated, and they are reassuring for me to read. Proving to me that most of you see this the same way I do. And that leaving with no job to go to was infact a good idea.Heheh now that is all sorted though! Got a new job and am now back on track!
Again, thanks very much everybody!
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: Euroville
Life changes when you have no income
Good luck with your new Job!
